Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 22:47:16 GMT -5
Really I think the biggest lesson to take away from this is mostly just if you're making a trilogy maybe actually plan for a trilogy instead of just winging it.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 18, 2019 22:49:00 GMT -5
Only until recently I recalled from reading peeps online talk about it that AOTC was initially liked after TPM: jango, the obi-wan plot in particular were praised. After time the love angle and “boring” criticism started to hold the high ground as it were. I think ending with Yoda doing his flippy shit really went a long way towards having people leaving the movie on a high. I’d say the entire final act did. I loved the battle of Geomosis. It was that first ninety minutes that killed me
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Dec 18, 2019 23:01:02 GMT -5
I think ending with Yoda doing his flippy shit really went a long way towards having people leaving the movie on a high. I’d say the entire final act did. I loved the battle of Geomosis. It was that first ninety minutes that killed me
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Dec 18, 2019 23:08:28 GMT -5
It reveals how the lack of a real plan for the trilogy hurt it badly in the end. There's something fundamentally bizarre that this billion dollar film franchise, in the hands of company that pulled off a 10 year plus movie universe with 20 something Marvel flicks, supposedly concluding a story saga that began in 1977... may just amount to being a passive agressive tug of war between two directors over creative direction. I believe the issue was that, unlike the MCU, where they laid out a concrete road map and at least had decades of comics to look back upon for inspiration (Civil War, the Infinity Gauntlet, Fear Itself, etc.) as well as a majority of directors who were willing to follow along with the company's overarching policy, Star Wars had the twinfold problem of both retroactively undoing decades of lore (the "Legends" continuity) in an attempt to make everything simple for the sake of the average customer but also had to work with directors who had a track record of butting heads. Sure, as time went on, they have gone into the Legends continuity to pick and choose what they have wanted to use once more, as the MCU has done, but the process for that has been in the supplemental material as opposed to the mainline movies, and they still haven't reigned in both Rian Johnson or JJ Abrams. Ultimately, the "prequels" and the "sequels" are both going to be marred both by different types of creative quandaries; one in which you give a man nigh unlimited freedom, and the other in which you attempt to restrict the freedom as much as possible in a corporate setting. In both situations, you can create fantastic works depending upon the muse, but you can also cause catastrophic calamities. But... the story in this movie is how we're going to wrap up the series, so what lunacy we see on the screen this weekend is what it is. I agree with most of what you said but iono bout that part. If anything I’m more inclined to blame whoever above the directors didn’t kinda reign em in and make sure there was a distinct destination being aimed towards.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Dec 18, 2019 23:13:23 GMT -5
I just saw it at the midnight showing here in the UK. For the record, I lined up overnight to get into the European premiere this afternoon and I loved TFA and TLJ. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}I thought this was a big disappointment. Too disjointed, too much happening and some odd decisions from the characters. It definitely had its moments, as it was good to see C-3PO and Chewbacca given more to do and the fight scenes were all great. But Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter? Rey and Kylo (sorry, Ben Solo) basically bringing each other back to life, the First Order just randomly disappearing halfway through the movie...? It made no sense. It was like JJ took the criticisms of TLJ to heart and decided to pack the movie with fan service moments that only served to cancel each other out. I will watch it again because knowing the major plot points ahead of time might make me more favourable to it, but I doubt it.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 18, 2019 23:30:29 GMT -5
Kalmia, I have to ask about something really goofy that I read in those Reddit leaks a while ago about the finale. {Spoiler} Did they seriously do something as wacky as Rey summoning up the force ghosts of Luke and Leia in order to defeat The Emperor? In fact what is the rationale behind him even being back in this movie at all? A lot of the stuff in those leaks sounded like the worst crap I've ever heard in my life.
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Bang Bang Bart
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 18, 2019 23:42:57 GMT -5
A movie that people who liked Last Jedi or hated Last Jedi will hate?
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Dec 18, 2019 23:44:40 GMT -5
A movie that people who liked Last Jedi or hated Last Jedi will hate? We can all come together as fans and agree the movie Cats sucks.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 19, 2019 2:04:56 GMT -5
I’d say the entire final act did. I loved the battle of Geomosis. It was that first ninety minutes that killed me I remember those ads very well
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Post by Starshine on Dec 19, 2019 2:16:11 GMT -5
What a muddled trilogy this has been.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 19, 2019 3:55:31 GMT -5
More specifically, Lightsaber Form IV: Ataru. Literally the whole point of the form is to overwhelm the opponent using Force-embued acrobatics and swinging fast and hard to keep the opponent off-balance. It's terrible for more than single opponent, but definitely one they use quite frequently in the movies since it looks so flashy. ...damned if I don't want a video game that incorporates Lightsaber combat forms. I'm sure one or both KOTOR games did. Possibly the Jedi Knight series too but it has been awhile since I played them. The second KOTOR did give you the ability to change between the lightsaber combat forms but the only differences were stat boosts, nothing visible.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2019 7:32:58 GMT -5
It's... not good. It's better than all the prequels by a long way, and has some truly excellent things in it, but it genuinely feels like they tried cramming an entire trilogy into a single movie.
Gotta lay the blame with J.J. and Chris Terrio on this one. Much as J.J. might talk about the grand overarching plan for the trilogy, the evidence points to the opposite, and Rise of Skywalker really does play like it was written to appease both sides of the fandom and will probably only really engage with casual viewers and kids.
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Post by thechase on Dec 19, 2019 9:59:02 GMT -5
Just came back from it. It's an indefensible mess. Last Jedi honestly looks like the best thing out of this trilogy now, apologise to Rian Johnson right this instant. I don't want to even hear a peep against that anymore, in fact, if you had ended the Skywalker saga with THAT film it would have done a far better job of giving the franchise a set course for the decades to follow. That concluded the Skywalker saga, move on to telling years of struggle in new trilogies against the First Order and don't look back. But you did, and now here we are. {Spoiler}There's no stakes to anything, all the good guys make it out, some don't even get scratched. The Falcon doesn't get dented, Lando doesn't need to be here, the Leia interactions were clumsy and there is poor justification not just for her having to die to give her son a telephone call, but Kylo turns to the light simply because Rey nursed him back to health and said she'd take his hand.
Not all of it was hokum, Tthe Han cameo was very good though and served as a nice book-end to how they were in Force Awakens, all the LJ back-peddling on Luke's island was worthwhile, Hamil shines in anything he's in. I appreciated the callback to Last Jedi's last line "you have everything you need"
Papaltine was plastered all over the marketing, but he's barely in it, there's allusions to cloning so those who say his return wasn't explained aren't paying enough attention I guess. That stuff is lifted wholesale from Dark Empire and other material.
Seems a lot of C-3PO's moments didn't make the final cut, wasn't he supposed to be armed and thought he was a warrior? Nothing came of that, and R2 was separated from him for most of the movie, and again didn't do much other than provide a cheap out for C-3PO having anything of true consequence occur with him.
And lastly, the Reylo thing. The fanbase for this 'ship always distrubed and fascinated me, but the Last Jedi fleshed out and justified the 'ship better than this did. It felt like Abrams didn't understand what Johnson was trying to tell with the characters and didn't really want to go down that route but felt obligated to do so. It felt like he was imitating what was going on in Last Jedi, and that kiss on Rey's end, with REY making the moves on Ben, was just not what people had been raised to expect of her character. Now we're to believe she was the one who had feelings for a man-child serial murderer with the vintage "I can fix him" mentality. Avoid this one. I won't say Star Wars is dead, but this trilogy has been a black mark that the franchise will take years to recover from
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Dec 19, 2019 10:04:50 GMT -5
"Anyone can piss off one side of an issue, the real skill is to piss off both sides" -Bill Burr
Looks like JJ is making sure no one is happy about this.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 19, 2019 10:11:07 GMT -5
At the very least Disney was smart enough to be hands off with it, and oversaw a series without any films that divided the fanbase in any significant way (complaints about the Mandarain twist in IM3 seem so quaint now). Whether the Mouse was too involved or not enough with Star Wars, something definitely feels like it went wrong with its management at some point.Without a doubt. and people have brought it up in the last few pages but “only-sorta-not-really” having an idea of where the story would go is probably it. And wasn't Dark World where Feige had some of the least actual control over? IIRC it and Age of Ultron were the two movies that made Feige go right to Iger and convince him to be put in charge of the entire shebang. No idea. AOU felt like a mess. That’s probably the closest I’d relate this too. But they course corrected hard. Not sure if that was more credit to Feigi or the Russo brothers but, whoever was cooking in the kitchen got their shit together. I still say perhaps Ultron should have been one of the Iron Man movies, with Civil War being the second Avengers movie.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2019 10:28:05 GMT -5
Last Jedi honestly looks like the best thing out of this trilogy now, apologise to Rian Johnson right this instant. I don't want to even hear a peep against that anymore, in fact, if you had ended the Skywalker saga with THAT film it would have done a far better job of giving the franchise a set course for the decades to follow. That concluded the Skywalker saga, move on to telling years of struggle in new trilogies against the First Order and don't look back. But you did, and now here we are. For once, you and I are in total agreement. Honestly, despite giving him the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up to this movie, I think J.J., a writer-director notorious for setting up big plot points and never knowing how to pay them off properly, was the wrong choice for the trilogy. I think he'd have been perfect for one of the side movies, though, which have thus far traded heavily on nostalgia and fan service, which have been J.J.'s primary go-tos.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Dec 19, 2019 10:33:16 GMT -5
Last Jedi honestly looks like the best thing out of this trilogy now, apologise to Rian Johnson right this instant. I don't want to even hear a peep against that anymore, in fact, if you had ended the Skywalker saga with THAT film it would have done a far better job of giving the franchise a set course for the decades to follow. That concluded the Skywalker saga, move on to telling years of struggle in new trilogies against the First Order and don't look back. But you did, and now here we are. For once, you and I are in total agreement. Honestly, despite giving him the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up to this movie, I think J.J., a writer-director notorious for setting up big plot points and never knowing how to pay them off properly, was the wrong choice for the trilogy. I think he'd have been perfect for one of the side movies, though, which have thus far traded heavily on nostalgia and fan service, which have been J.J.'s primary go-tos.Worked pretty much as close to ideal for TFA both in terms of money and reception. But (I’m going to say this until my face is blue) there should of been a plan if not by him, orchestrated to him by someone, anyone, no “mystery box bullshit”. Star Trek fans warned us.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2019 11:02:54 GMT -5
For once, you and I are in total agreement. Honestly, despite giving him the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up to this movie, I think J.J., a writer-director notorious for setting up big plot points and never knowing how to pay them off properly, was the wrong choice for the trilogy. I think he'd have been perfect for one of the side movies, though, which have thus far traded heavily on nostalgia and fan service, which have been J.J.'s primary go-tos.Worked pretty much as close to ideal for TFA both in terms of money and reception. But (I’m going to say this until my face is blue) there should of been a plan if not by him, orchestrated to him by someone, anyone, no “mystery box bullshit”. Star Trek fans warned us. Force Awakens is a fine movie: safe and familiar, and sort of what was needed to cleanse the stink of the prequels from the franchise. However, as you say, the mystery box bullshit is heavy with it, and that's always been J.J.'s failing. Do I believe there was some overall plan for the trilogy? Yeah, I do. But I think it was likely vague at best, and somebody panicked over the volatile reaction to Last Jedi. {Spoiler}A vocal minority hated Rose? Bury her so deep in the supporting cast she might as well not be in the movie.
Another vocal minority ship Rey and Ben? Let's try to appease them too, no matter how tone deaf and creepy it is.
Don't want to run with Kylo Ren as irredeemably evil and true big bad because it doesn't fit with the Return of the Jedi Lite narrative? Give Ian McDiarmid a call.
That last one feels like the biggest dropped ball of them all. McDiarmid is always great, but we've seen that story before, and we've seen the redemption arc before too. Kylo Ren and Hux with a Megatron/Starscream dynamic would've been a more interesting direction to take.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Dec 19, 2019 11:18:11 GMT -5
Worked pretty much as close to ideal for TFA both in terms of money and reception. But (I’m going to say this until my face is blue) there should of been a plan if not by him, orchestrated to him by someone, anyone, no “mystery box bullshit”. Star Trek fans warned us. Force Awakens is a fine movie: safe and familiar, and sort of what was needed to cleanse the stink of the prequels from the franchise. However, as you say, the mystery box bullshit is heavy with it, and that's always been J.J.'s failing. Do I believe there was some overall plan for the trilogy? Yeah, I do. But I think it was likely vague at best, and somebody panicked over the volatile reaction to Last Jedi. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}A vocal minority hated Rose? Bury her so deep in the supporting cast she might as well not be in the movie.
Another vocal minority ship Rey and Ben? Let's try to appease them too, no matter how tone deaf and creepy it is.
Don't want to run with Kylo Ren as irredeemably evil and true big bad because it doesn't fit with the Return of the Jedi Lite narrative? Give Ian McDiarmid a call.
That last one feels like the biggest dropped ball of them all. McDiarmid is always great, but we've seen that story before, and we've seen the redemption arc before too. Kylo Ren and Hux with a Megatron/Starscream dynamic would've been a more interesting direction to take. Yeah and I had some issues with TLJ but {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Reading the leaks, you just knew this all sounded like massive “course-correction”. To the point of deterring all sides of the fandom frankly. Don’t like what Rian did? YALL LET HIM. Act well your part and continue the story. The Rose stuff in particular I’ve read is like, damn. It was blatant to anyone paying attention during the press tour. Agreed about the Kylo/reylo/palpatine criticisms. And now here we are and the whole trilogy is a mess..lol. It’s kinda funny and sad at the same time.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Dec 19, 2019 11:24:18 GMT -5
For once, you and I are in total agreement. Honestly, despite giving him the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up to this movie, I think J.J., a writer-director notorious for setting up big plot points and never knowing how to pay them off properly, was the wrong choice for the trilogy. I think he'd have been perfect for one of the side movies, though, which have thus far traded heavily on nostalgia and fan service, which have been J.J.'s primary go-tos.Worked pretty much as close to ideal for TFA both in terms of money and reception. But (I’m going to say this until my face is blue) there should of been a plan if not by him, orchestrated to him by someone, anyone, no “mystery box bullshit”. Star Trek fans warned us. JJ was absolutely the right guy for TFA, fans needed a Member Berries palette cleanser after the Prequels and JJ was the guy for that. But they either should’ve convinced him to do the whole trilogy, which I feel would’ve been enjoyable but nothing exceptionally groundbreaking or memorable, or give full reign to someone else as long as certain critical plot points were hit. Someone who’s gonna work outside the box a little. Because, regardless of whether you love or hate TLJ, you have to admit at least it tried to do something different. There were legitimately shocking, but logical, plot points and I was very curious to see where it went. But I just read the full synopsis of IX and it basically comes across like a giant fan fiction by someone who really had their knickers in a knot about TLJ. Seriously, the entire synopsis reads like the movie was written by one of those douchebags on YouTube who threw a tantrum about TLJ killing Star Wars. Guess I’ll find out this weekend if the movie comes across better in action, because that synopsis sounds so f***ing lame.
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