Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 16:53:59 GMT -5
I don’t mind her as much as I thought that I would so far. I suspect that will change when she starts buzzsawing through all of the women only to lose to Charlotte though.
She’s not technically full time, but she’s on Raw most weeks doing something, so it’s not a huge deal right now.
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Aug 4, 2018 23:49:00 GMT -5
Did they actually rehearse the moves or just lay the whole match out step by step? I thought the latter. Probably rehearse since she’s still so new. I’ve been saying that since the beginning which I don’t mind but you can tell she has the instinct for it. You can rehearse the moves all you want but the things like her facial expressions and little quirks can’t be rehearsed I meant DDP and Savage. I knew Savage layed out the match move by move, but I never heard about them rehearsing moves. Makes sense for Rhonda to, though. I think they've booked her excellently thus far.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 1:11:55 GMT -5
EXACTLY! The top belt hasn't felt like this big of a deal in at least 28 years. Absolute revisionist history. Everyone now acts like Sammartino, Hogan and Flair and any other top titleholders back then only worked once a month, and that is absolute BS. Sammartino worked 144 matches during 1963 (his first year as champ) and worked 43 his final year as champ, and outside the couple of times he took time off, semi-retired, every year between the was somewhere inbetween those numbers. In 1984, Hogan had 147 matches. Another 147 in 1985, 136 in 1986, 159 in '87, 91 in '88, 110 in '89 and 79 matches in 1990. Between the time he debuted and the year 2001, Flair didn't wrestle less than 45 matches a year. Backlund's least productive year as champ was 1983, and even then, he had 83 matches in that one year. Oh, I definitely do see the difference on paper, but I can't see how all those non-televised defenses count toward perception in an era where at least 80% of the fans had no idea those matches were even taking place. As a kid in the late '80s-very early '90s, I read WWF mags and watched the majority of their TV, which meant I saw Hogan appear maybe 5-6 times a year tops, and never even heard his house show matches mentioned from WWF sources. Unless you lived in a major market city like NY or Philly, I can't imagine there isn't a sizable portion of the same demographic who saw Hogan about as often as we're seeing Lesnar now.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 5, 2018 4:05:03 GMT -5
As a kid in the late '80s-very early '90s, I read WWF mags and watched the majority of their TV, which meant I saw Hogan appear maybe 5-6 times a year tops, and never even heard his house show matches mentioned from WWF sources. They literally had a segment of every episode of every show during those years that was devoted to announcing dates and arenas for local house shows, very often listing Hogan as being set to main event some of them, unless he was selling an injury angle or something of that nature. I feel pretty confidant in believing that - excluding any sort of surprise appearance scenarios - every single Hogan match between his title win through to his departure was advertised on television in some form or fashion.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 5, 2018 8:19:09 GMT -5
As a kid in the late '80s-very early '90s, I read WWF mags and watched the majority of their TV, which meant I saw Hogan appear maybe 5-6 times a year tops, and never even heard his house show matches mentioned from WWF sources. They literally had a segment of every episode of every show during those years that was devoted to announcing dates and arenas for local house shows, very often listing Hogan as being set to main event some of them, unless he was selling an injury angle or something of that nature. I feel pretty confidant in believing that - excluding any sort of surprise appearance scenarios - every single Hogan match between his title win through to his departure was advertised on television in some form or fashion. It's also actually even more different than you're saying too, because Hogan would be discussed even if he wasn't around. Brock often just evaporates entirely from continuity if he isn't in an angle, and the Universal Title is only glanced at during these periods (although still mentioned more than Brock is).
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Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 5, 2018 13:31:06 GMT -5
Unless you lived in a major market city like NY or Philly, I can't imagine there isn't a sizable portion of the same demographic who saw Hogan about as often as we're seeing Lesnar now. Here's the big monkeywrench in that thinking: Saturday Night Main Event. During Hogan's run, that show was on NBC (aka The Most Available TV Station In America at the time), pulled in ratings ranging from 8.7 to 11.6 EVERY episode. And Hogan worked almost every single one of those for five years. Let's remove the MSG and Spectrum TV appearances and just go with nationwide TV: In 1985, Hogan wrestled on 4 SNMEs, 2 PPVs (Wrestlemania I and the Wrestling Classic) and one match on MTV (War To Settle the Score). That's 7. In 1986, Hogan wrestled on 5 SNMES and 1 PPV (WM2). That's 6. In 1987, 3 SNME shows and 2 PPVs (WM3, Survivor Series). That's 5. In 1988, 3 SNMEs and 3 PPVs (WM4, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 6. In 1989, 5 SNMES and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM5, Summerslam, Survivor Series, No Holds Barred). That's 10. In 1990, 3 SNMES and 4 PPVS (Rumble, WM6, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 7. In 1991, 1 SNME and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM7, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Tuesday/Texas). That's 6. In 1992, he had one SNME match and two PPVS (Rumble, WM8) to make 3 mass-available matches before he disappeared. I mean, my god, guys...that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources. I'm not even including the occasional matches on their other shows, JUST the PPVS and SNME. And we haven't even factored in his exclusive-to-Coliseum taped matches, which have to factor into this somewhat. It was a different world then, but those were first-run matches of his from that year that were made available to every person walking into a video store. So even if we don't count those as "live" matches, they were there bluntly informing any viewer's psyche that Hogan was wrestling on actual shows.
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Post by KofiMania on Aug 5, 2018 21:27:43 GMT -5
Unless you lived in a major market city like NY or Philly, I can't imagine there isn't a sizable portion of the same demographic who saw Hogan about as often as we're seeing Lesnar now. Here's the big monkeywrench in that thinking: Saturday Night Main Event. During Hogan's run, that show was on NBC (aka The Most Available TV Station In America at the time), pulled in ratings ranging from 8.7 to 11.6 EVERY episode. And Hogan worked almost every single one of those for five years. Let's remove the MSG and Spectrum TV appearances and just go with nationwide TV: In 1985, Hogan wrestled on 4 SNMEs, 2 PPVs (Wrestlemania I and the Wrestling Classic) and one match on MTV (War To Settle the Score). That's 7. In 1986, Hogan wrestled on 5 SNMES and 1 PPV (WM2). That's 6. In 1987, 3 SNME shows and 2 PPVs (WM3, Survivor Series). That's 5. In 1988, 3 SNMEs and 3 PPVs (WM4, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 6. In 1989, 5 SNMES and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM5, Summerslam, Survivor Series, No Holds Barred). That's 10. In 1990, 3 SNMES and 4 PPVS (Rumble, WM6, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 7. In 1991, 1 SNME and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM7, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Tuesday/Texas). That's 6. In 1992, he had one SNME match and two PPVS (Rumble, WM8) to make 3 mass-available matches before he disappeared. I mean, my god, guys...that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources. I'm not even including the occasional matches on their other shows, JUST the PPVS and SNME. And we haven't even factored in his exclusive-to-Coliseum taped matches, which have to factor into this somewhat. It was a different world then, but those were first-run matches of his from that year that were made available to every person walking into a video store. So even if we don't count those as "live" matches, they were there bluntly informing any viewer's psyche that Hogan was wrestling on actual shows. So he worked between 5-10 televised matches per year. Lesnar fought 4 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016, 7 in 2017, and 3 so far in 2018.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Aug 5, 2018 21:38:34 GMT -5
Here's the big monkeywrench in that thinking: Saturday Night Main Event. During Hogan's run, that show was on NBC (aka The Most Available TV Station In America at the time), pulled in ratings ranging from 8.7 to 11.6 EVERY episode. And Hogan worked almost every single one of those for five years. Let's remove the MSG and Spectrum TV appearances and just go with nationwide TV: In 1985, Hogan wrestled on 4 SNMEs, 2 PPVs (Wrestlemania I and the Wrestling Classic) and one match on MTV (War To Settle the Score). That's 7. In 1986, Hogan wrestled on 5 SNMES and 1 PPV (WM2). That's 6. In 1987, 3 SNME shows and 2 PPVs (WM3, Survivor Series). That's 5. In 1988, 3 SNMEs and 3 PPVs (WM4, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 6. In 1989, 5 SNMES and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM5, Summerslam, Survivor Series, No Holds Barred). That's 10. In 1990, 3 SNMES and 4 PPVS (Rumble, WM6, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 7. In 1991, 1 SNME and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM7, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Tuesday/Texas). That's 6. In 1992, he had one SNME match and two PPVS (Rumble, WM8) to make 3 mass-available matches before he disappeared. I mean, my god, guys...that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources. I'm not even including the occasional matches on their other shows, JUST the PPVS and SNME. And we haven't even factored in his exclusive-to-Coliseum taped matches, which have to factor into this somewhat. It was a different world then, but those were first-run matches of his from that year that were made available to every person walking into a video store. So even if we don't count those as "live" matches, they were there bluntly informing any viewer's psyche that Hogan was wrestling on actual shows. So he worked between 5-10 televised matches per year. Lesnar fought 4 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016, 7 in 2017, and 3 so far in 2018. If we leave that logic out we need to also add in the fact it's a different product right now. We've been accustomed to seeing our World champion on TV about 4-8 times a month for the last 20 years plus.
When I watched shows like Superstars or Spotlight I knew I was going to see squash matches but I'd see a Hogan interview, he'd be feuding with someone on the house show circuit and when they did the weekly UPDATE segments It'd usually show who Hogan was beefing with and why.
Lesnar has just been absent. Some weeks we just need to pretend he doesn't exist.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,896
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Post by schma on Aug 5, 2018 21:53:14 GMT -5
Here's the big monkeywrench in that thinking: Saturday Night Main Event. During Hogan's run, that show was on NBC (aka The Most Available TV Station In America at the time), pulled in ratings ranging from 8.7 to 11.6 EVERY episode. And Hogan worked almost every single one of those for five years. Let's remove the MSG and Spectrum TV appearances and just go with nationwide TV: In 1985, Hogan wrestled on 4 SNMEs, 2 PPVs (Wrestlemania I and the Wrestling Classic) and one match on MTV (War To Settle the Score). That's 7. In 1986, Hogan wrestled on 5 SNMES and 1 PPV (WM2). That's 6. In 1987, 3 SNME shows and 2 PPVs (WM3, Survivor Series). That's 5. In 1988, 3 SNMEs and 3 PPVs (WM4, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 6. In 1989, 5 SNMES and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM5, Summerslam, Survivor Series, No Holds Barred). That's 10. In 1990, 3 SNMES and 4 PPVS (Rumble, WM6, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 7. In 1991, 1 SNME and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM7, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Tuesday/Texas). That's 6. In 1992, he had one SNME match and two PPVS (Rumble, WM8) to make 3 mass-available matches before he disappeared. I mean, my god, guys...that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources. I'm not even including the occasional matches on their other shows, JUST the PPVS and SNME. And we haven't even factored in his exclusive-to-Coliseum taped matches, which have to factor into this somewhat. It was a different world then, but those were first-run matches of his from that year that were made available to every person walking into a video store. So even if we don't count those as "live" matches, they were there bluntly informing any viewer's psyche that Hogan was wrestling on actual shows. So he worked between 5-10 televised matches per year. Lesnar fought 4 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016, 7 in 2017, and 3 so far in 2018. Keep in mind he specified that this wasn't all the televised matches Hogan was in. This was just SNME and PPV. There were also numerous non-wrestling segments but he may well have had more televised matches.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 5, 2018 22:21:18 GMT -5
Here's the big monkeywrench in that thinking: Saturday Night Main Event. During Hogan's run, that show was on NBC (aka The Most Available TV Station In America at the time), pulled in ratings ranging from 8.7 to 11.6 EVERY episode. And Hogan worked almost every single one of those for five years. Let's remove the MSG and Spectrum TV appearances and just go with nationwide TV: In 1985, Hogan wrestled on 4 SNMEs, 2 PPVs (Wrestlemania I and the Wrestling Classic) and one match on MTV (War To Settle the Score). That's 7. In 1986, Hogan wrestled on 5 SNMES and 1 PPV (WM2). That's 6. In 1987, 3 SNME shows and 2 PPVs (WM3, Survivor Series). That's 5. In 1988, 3 SNMEs and 3 PPVs (WM4, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 6. In 1989, 5 SNMES and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM5, Summerslam, Survivor Series, No Holds Barred). That's 10. In 1990, 3 SNMES and 4 PPVS (Rumble, WM6, Summerslam, Survivor Series). That's 7. In 1991, 1 SNME and 5 PPVS (Rumble, WM7, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Tuesday/Texas). That's 6. In 1992, he had one SNME match and two PPVS (Rumble, WM8) to make 3 mass-available matches before he disappeared. I mean, my god, guys...that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources. I'm not even including the occasional matches on their other shows, JUST the PPVS and SNME. And we haven't even factored in his exclusive-to-Coliseum taped matches, which have to factor into this somewhat. It was a different world then, but those were first-run matches of his from that year that were made available to every person walking into a video store. So even if we don't count those as "live" matches, they were there bluntly informing any viewer's psyche that Hogan was wrestling on actual shows. So he worked between 5-10 televised matches per year. Lesnar fought 4 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016, 7 in 2017, and 3 so far in 2018. Please re-read what was actually written and not make up stuff, thanks.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 5, 2018 22:28:58 GMT -5
EXACTLY! The top belt hasn't felt like this big of a deal in at least 28 years. If you mean the Universal title, I gotta disagree. It feels like an afterthought most of the time. It barely exists. At least Hogan would cut a promo. I'm a fan of fighting champions though. Yeah, the Universal title doesn't feel important at all... I barely remember it exists... Neither of Brock's reigns are anything like Hogan's or Bruno's or any other old time wrestler people like to say it emulates... THEY DID NOT JUST f***ING VANISH with the title. Hogan, Savage, Undertaker, any 80's early 90's wrestler and beyond everyone knew they were the champion they were all over the show. If Hogan didn't have a match... he had a promo, or the person he was feuding with had a promo, or a match... or both. People would talk about them, their feuds would be recapped, people would even feud with each other to get a chance to face the champion... Brock with the title gets none of this. Brock takes the title and it ceases to be. almost no one talks about him like they are trying to jockey for position to get a title shot, or that they want the title... or that there is a title... it's just not there. During Brock's WWE title reign they pretty much acted like Seth was the champion. He was in all the segments that the champion would be in... he was in the main feud of the show... he was clearly the top heel to Cena's top face... he pretty much was the champion the only difference was he didn't have the belt with him. It's one of the reasons why his actual title reign kinda fell flat because at that point he'd already done everything as he'd been the top heel champ for like a year before hand. this is ignoring the changes to wrestling between the 1980's and today... including the amount of television produced has increased about 300 fold.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
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Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 5, 2018 22:29:00 GMT -5
As a kid in the late 80's/early 90's, I always knew Hogan was around and what angles he had going on. I also knew exactly who he'd be defending the title against next. There are months today where I forget the Universal Title is even a thing.
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Post by KofiMania on Aug 6, 2018 9:03:32 GMT -5
So he worked between 5-10 televised matches per year. Lesnar fought 4 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016, 7 in 2017, and 3 so far in 2018. Please re-read what was actually written and not make up stuff, thanks. Seems rather flippant. I was directly responding to the part where you wrote “that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources.” I was pointing out that part was not true.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Aug 6, 2018 10:01:16 GMT -5
Cornette has said on his podcast that this is exactly what they used to do with babyfaces who were super green in whom territory promotions saw potential. At some point, they will let her go, probably with a trusted vet who can call the match, then all will be well.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 6, 2018 11:16:43 GMT -5
Please re-read what was actually written and not make up stuff, thanks. Seems rather flippant. I was directly responding to the part where you wrote “that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources.” I was pointing out that part was not true. Your first response was flippant. You may have directly responded to one sentence, but you purposely ignored the sentence RIGHT AFTER IT. Your response: Completely ignoring
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 6, 2018 11:49:57 GMT -5
As a kid in the late 80's/early 90's, I always knew Hogan was around and what angles he had going on. I also knew exactly who he'd be defending the title against next. There are months today where I forget the Universal Title is even a thing. It's also worth bearing in mind, that when you are reminded of Brock holding the UC, it is generally by Roman Reigns bitching.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 6, 2018 11:59:50 GMT -5
There were also numerous non-wrestling segments but he may well have had more televised matches. This is it right here. More than house shows--which at the time were still one of the primary legs of the business in ways they aren't now--Hogan was always active, around, and shown to be doing things. He didn't defend the title and go home for two months, the show never felt like it was missing Hogan in the way that Raw is missing Brock. The idea that younger fans got "spoiled" during the Monday Night Wars and are now just emptily bitching about a return to the old way are completely ignoring the gaping narrative hole that Brock creates and how much stagnation it causes on the show.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Aug 6, 2018 12:40:27 GMT -5
Taking one year - 1987 - as an example, Hogan's televised/PPV matchesL
1987 1. Taped 5th Jan – Wrestling Challenge: Hogan and Steamboat d. Savage and Honky Tonk Man 2. Taped 6th Jan – Wrestling Challenge: Hogan d. Hercules (possible WWF title match) 3. Taped 27th Jan – Wrestling Challenge: Hogan d. Kamala (and possibly the Cage match a few days earlier was taped for certain markets) 4. 14th Feb – Hogan d. Kamala (title match), in a PRISM Network show 5. 16th Feb – Hogan d. Hrcules – Prime Time Wrstling 6. 21st Feb – SNME Battle Royal, Hogan loses 7. 7th March – PTW – Hogan/Piper/Billy Jack Haynes d. Adnis/Orndorff/Hercules 8. 14th March – Hogan and Piper d. Kamala and Orndorff, PRISM Network show 9. 29th March – Mania 3 – Hogan d. Andre (title match) 10. Taped 23rd April – Superstars: Hogan and Billy Jack Haynes d. Hart Foundation and Dangerous Danny Davis 11. 24th April – unknown Wrestling Challenge date: Hogan/Jake/Tito d. Race/Butch Reed/Honky 12. 2nd May – Prime Time: Hogan d. Harley Race (title match) 13. 9th may – Hogan d. Race (title match), PRISM 14. 12th May – either Prime Time or Superstars taping: Hogan d. Bob orton Jr (title match?) 15. 18th May – Hogan d. Race (title match), MSG Network 16. 2nd June – Hogan and Koko B Ware d. Kamala and Honky Tonk Man, Wrestling Challenge 17. 6th June – Hogan d. Race in a Texas Death match after hitting Race with the title belt, NESN tv 18. 14th June - Hogan d. Race, TDM, etc, MSG Network. 19. 24th June – Hogan/Patera d. Race/Hercules, Wrestling Challenge 20. 15th July – Hogan d. Savage, unnamd Superstars taping 21. 26th August – Prime Time Wrestling taping, Hogan d. One Man Gang 22. 12th September – NESN (and seemingly taped for All Americna Wrestling) Hogan d. Killer Khan 23. 18th September – PRISM/Prime Time: Hogan d. Killer Khan 24. 21st September – MSG/Prime Time: Hogan DREW One Man Gang 25. 23rd September – SNME – Hogan d. Sika 26. 9th October – Prime Time – Dibiase d. Hogan by count out 27. 28th October – Prime Time taping allegedly, Hogan d. One Man Gang 28. 11th November – SNME – Bundy d. Hogan 29. 26th November – Survivor Series – Hogan team loses 30. 5th December – PRISM/Prime Time – Hogan d. One Man Gang 31. 7th December – SNME – Hogan d. Bundy (title match)
Using HistoryofWWE as a source, and omitting some grey area matches. I note some of them were non-national, but they were televised. Appear - well, I saw the 1987 Wrestling Challenges back on Sky in 2000-ish, and Cawthon's site backs up that Hogan appears on nearly every single TV show, be it a quick interview spot, or a bigger angle moment on the Snake Pit or with Roddy, for example.
However... chap above might have a point. I note that one Hogan interview wasn't shown in some parts of the country, which makes me wonder if the folk who go "there was no Hogan" were living in some poor sod part of the US where the local censors chopped wrestling shows to bits.
Certainly though, despite not wrestling that often on TV, he still did far more than Brock and had at least 6 televised title matches (though that number could easily double there tbh).
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Post by KofiMania on Aug 6, 2018 13:39:39 GMT -5
Seems rather flippant. I was directly responding to the part where you wrote “that right there is evident of him outdistancing Lesnar on this just with those sources.” I was pointing out that part was not true. Your first response was flippant. You may have directly responded to one sentence, but you purposely ignored the sentence RIGHT AFTER IT. Your response: Completely ignoring Apart from those identified by you, he wrestled 3 additional TV matches in 1985, 3 in 1986, 1 in 1987, 1 in 1988, 1 in 1990, and 0 in 1989 and 1991.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 6, 2018 13:59:00 GMT -5
Your first response was flippant. You may have directly responded to one sentence, but you purposely ignored the sentence RIGHT AFTER IT. Your response: Completely ignoring Apart from those identified by you, he wrestled 3 additional TV matches in 1985, 3 in 1986, 1 in 1987, 1 in 1988, 1 in 1990, and 0 in 1989 and 1991. The post directly above yours lists out a total of 31 PPV/TV matches for 1987 alone.
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