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Post by héad.casé on Aug 30, 2018 4:28:30 GMT -5
Learning from Eddie and Chavo Guerrero on how to call matches in the ring:"For the first eight months, we [Benjamin and Charlie Haas] were working with Eddie and Chavo Guerrero, and they would hide from us during the live events. They didn't want to call matches because that was old school, and that was how they came up. Eventually they got fed up with us and we had one of those 'coming to Jesus' meetings. We told them they didn't need to tell us spot-for-spot, but we just don't know the things you're trying to do. Eddie, who was always the captain of the ship said, 'You guys are right, and I need to be a better captain.' He started teaching us the spots. So the next six months we never planned anything. We just showed up and had a great time in the ring. The rest of the art is just being familiar with who you're in the ring with." Wrestlers not adjusting the match based on the crowd's response and giving an example of Christian trying to play a heel in Canada:"Guys are so reliant on planning a match, to go out and do their plan, regardless of crowd response. Sometimes you gotta go out and call audibles. You need to say 'this ain't working' and change it up. ... Christian was trying to turn the fans on him during a promo, but they cheered him even louder. We decided that he was the babyface and I became the heel. Right on the fly, we switched the match." wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2018/0829/645309/shelton-benjamin-on-who-he-trusts-to-call-matches-in-a-wwe-ring/
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,121
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 30, 2018 4:38:45 GMT -5
It's often said that, and this isn't just a WWE problem, that many wrestlers past a certain generation can be much more rigid on match structure, whether that's due to trying to make sure they get all their stuff in, second guessing themselves maybe, or inexperience with improvising and probably road agents who don't want them to play too loose. This does give them a structure, but you also end up seeing people have the same goddamn match all the time, or being totally incapable of dealing with botched spots, either being a deer in headlights, or trying the same spot again, making the botch much more glaring.
There are some guys who don't have this problem as badly. Obviously, Ambrose and others with indie experience outside of the developmental system have a more varied background, and that can help a lot. He's my favorite wrestler, so I gush about him a lot, but I think Rusev looks much more flexible about these things, as well.
I recall a match where Rusev fought Great Khali. This could have been an unmitigated shit show, and Khali tried to kick Rusev from the corner and missed by a good half a foot. Without a moment's hesitation, Rusev reached out and "deflected" the kick away from him, as if it was ever going to find purchase, and just went in on the offensive immediately. No disbelief suspension being strained, seamless so the fans didn't even have a moment to think about it. Tell me even a quarter of the roster would have handled that situation as well, with any certainty, and I'd have to concede optimist status to you between the two of us, because I have some major doubts many of them could have saved that moment.
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819 
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Aug 30, 2018 4:55:11 GMT -5
The “science” of wrestling and calling it in the ring and adapting to crowds and deciding what to do and when to do it etc is one of my favourite nerdy things to hear wrestlers talk about. It’s absolutely fascinating.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 30, 2018 11:20:12 GMT -5
Personally, I think a weird inflexibility AGAINST planning out matches is a bigger problem. Yeah, you should be able to improvise if something weird happens, but planned-out matches are just more likely to be good overall.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 30, 2018 11:22:13 GMT -5
In the case of WWE, I think the talent has minimal blame for not changing shit on the fly. How much do we think Roman wants to turn, after all?
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Aug 30, 2018 12:16:46 GMT -5
The “science” of wrestling and calling it in the ring and adapting to crowds and deciding what to do and when to do it etc is one of my favourite nerdy things to hear wrestlers talk about. It’s absolutely fascinating. To me, that just takes incomprehensible psychology to be able to read an entire crowd of people on the fly and change your entire story with no prior planning. I've always been fascinated by it. |
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Post by Shy Guy on Aug 30, 2018 13:20:51 GMT -5
Personally, I think a weird inflexibility AGAINST planning out matches is a bigger problem. Yeah, you should be able to improvise if something weird happens, but planned-out matches are just more likely to be good overall. I heard macho man would plan his step by step, and wrote everything down, like 1. Lock up 2. Irish whip 3. Clothesline |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 30, 2018 13:28:34 GMT -5
Personally, I think a weird inflexibility AGAINST planning out matches is a bigger problem. Yeah, you should be able to improvise if something weird happens, but planned-out matches are just more likely to be good overall. I heard macho man would plan his step by step, and wrote everything down, like 1. Lock up 2. Irish whip 3. Clothesline DDP was very similar, I think. He wanted to know exactly what he was supposed to do and when. |
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Post by chronocross on Aug 30, 2018 14:15:28 GMT -5
Personally, I think a weird inflexibility AGAINST planning out matches is a bigger problem. Yeah, you should be able to improvise if something weird happens, but planned-out matches are just more likely to be good overall. I heard macho man would plan his step by step, and wrote everything down, like 1. Lock up 2. Irish whip 3. Clothesline Truthfully I don’t mind the planning as long as I enjoy the matches and I really enjoyed his series with Steamboat and later in WCW with DDP. |
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Aug 30, 2018 17:46:58 GMT -5
Personally, I think a weird inflexibility AGAINST planning out matches is a bigger problem. Yeah, you should be able to improvise if something weird happens, but planned-out matches are just more likely to be good overall. Yeah, a good balance is good. When I was working mixed tags in the ripoff indy I was in, I had pretty limited skill at the time so mine and "Lita's" segment was pretty much worked out to look great one time, and then repeated 20 times until I got a feel of my way around a real match, but every time we made sure to note what was boring the crowd and making them excited, and trying other stuff. Eventually it looked as well planned as one of Zack Sabre Jr's indy matches. The trick is finding the balance. |
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 30, 2018 17:56:40 GMT -5
I heard macho man would plan his step by step, and wrote everything down, like 1. Lock up 2. Irish whip 3. Clothesline DDP was very similar, I think. He wanted to know exactly what he was supposed to do and when. According to Bob Holly he stated that DDP would have in his notes how the wrestler should react to the move. Like if he punched, kicked, or slammed an opponent the individual should grimace and actually emote the pain. |
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Post by héad.casé on Aug 30, 2018 18:01:17 GMT -5
When I was wrestling as a face I always preferred the heel to call his heat in the ring once my shine was done and just let me know when the hope spot is, and when the proper comeback is. Less shit to remember.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 20:29:25 GMT -5
WWE won’t even change their storylines based on crowd response and yet Shelton is over here talking about changing matches.
Lol.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 30, 2018 22:13:35 GMT -5
DDP was very similar, I think. He wanted to know exactly what he was supposed to do and when. According to Bob Holly he stated that DDP would have in his notes how the wrestler should react to the move. Like if he punched, kicked, or slammed an opponent the individual should grimace and actually emote the pain. If true I could see how that would rub Taker the wrong way. Not saying Taker wasn't being an ass there but for a respect and tenure based locker room that Taker came from someone that just got there telling him how to react. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 30, 2018 22:17:56 GMT -5
In the case of WWE, I think the talent has minimal blame for not changing shit on the fly. How much do we think Roman wants to turn, after all? Considering he stated multiple times he has creative control and parroted the They like to boo bs? Probably not as much as he should. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Aug 31, 2018 1:46:03 GMT -5
The “science” of wrestling and calling it in the ring and adapting to crowds and deciding what to do and when to do it etc is one of my favourite nerdy things to hear wrestlers talk about. It’s absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a better technician than Bret. Able to plan AND react. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 31, 2018 1:55:18 GMT -5
In the case of WWE, I think the talent has minimal blame for not changing shit on the fly. How much do we think Roman wants to turn, after all? Considering he stated multiple times he has creative control and parroted the They like to boo bs? Probably not as much as he should. True, but I think Roman is an exception there. |
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Aug 31, 2018 9:33:05 GMT -5
The “science” of wrestling and calling it in the ring and adapting to crowds and deciding what to do and when to do it etc is one of my favourite nerdy things to hear wrestlers talk about. It’s absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a better technician than Bret. Able to plan AND react. I might have been too much of an HBK fan or just not "smarky" enough to "get" workratez but I never appreciated Bret til I got older. Watching him now you can see he really was a master. Hearing him talk about how he planned out the whole match with Bulldog in 92 while lying in a sunbed and then talked Bulldog through the whole thing cos he was too f***ed up to remember was just incredible. And how in the iron man match he'd planned out everything and hit the point where there was supposed to be 5 minutes to go and he got up on the turn buckle and looked at the clock at it was perfectly timed. Just amazing. |
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Aug 31, 2018 14:35:37 GMT -5
The “science” of wrestling and calling it in the ring and adapting to crowds and deciding what to do and when to do it etc is one of my favourite nerdy things to hear wrestlers talk about. It’s absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a better technician than Bret. Able to plan AND react. Agreed. Admittedly, I’m biased as all f***, but of Bret isn’t the best I’ve ever seen he’s top 2 or 3. Not the flashiest wrestler, but his storytelling and ability to make everything look and feel real are insane. |
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J. Hova
Don Corleone
Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt
Posts: 2,000
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Post by J. Hova on Sept 1, 2018 5:18:36 GMT -5
I mean Bret was an artisan when it came to anything between the ropes. He never hurt anyone, his stuff always looked good, and you never heard him talk in the ring. I don't ever remember him having a drizzling shit match either. That is really amazing when you look at everyone he worked with ranging from smaller guys like HBK, Hakushi, etc. all the way up to Kevin Nash, Sid, and Yoko. If someone wants to argue that he wasn't the best of all time in the ring, I might be willing to debate that point. I'm not even that big of a Bret Hart fan and like said before, you didn't realize how good he was until you look at the totality of his work.
To me the problem is that the WWE is just cut and dry now and everyone has to get their stuff in. For as talented as the roster is and I do think it is the most talented athletically that they have ever had, the guys just aren't allowed to/can't adapt. I think they are so ingrained to that way now that if it suddenly changed overnight, we'd see the biggest disaster of matches we'd have ever seen for months to come. I'll also blame a lot of it on the more camera and HD setup.
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