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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Sept 5, 2018 17:32:57 GMT -5
Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Sept 5, 2018 17:37:16 GMT -5
She also won a single match after her return and was instantly put into the title match, while Becky had to go on a winning streak to earn the same opportunity. Becky not going after Paige for her bad management, or decrying the Triple Threat match concept itself is bad writing. I like to think Becky went to Paige about it behind closed doors, then they made up and danced to Linkin Park. There is potential for a Paige heel turn here, where it could be revealed she did this on purpose to drive a wedge between them.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Sept 5, 2018 17:43:02 GMT -5
They really could go the Stone Cold route with Becky. Charlotte- “What did you want me to do?” Becky- What I want you to do right now is stop flapping your gums, making your stupid excuses and get ready for me to whip your ass!” They are trying for way too much nuance on the heel/face thing since Becky’s turn blew up in their face. Just make her an ass kicker who is supremely focused on the belt. I want Becky to start cutting promos like the awesome Austin promos in the lead up to Survivor Series 1996. "Pink robes. What the hell's that all about, Charlotte?" "The Princess of Staten Island kicked your ass back to The Queen City!" I tried to come up with something as cool as "put an 'S' in front of Hitman" but the best I could come up with is: "Charlotte? More like Char-shit!"
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Sept 5, 2018 17:44:00 GMT -5
Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour. It depends on how you view face characters to begin with. If you agree with Vince's principles of Ruthless Aggression then it is perfectly fine because anything goes to win. If you believe face characters should be noble warriors then Charlotte should have broken up the submission, eliminated Carmella (who has no honor and thus does not deserve to be given any), and then faced down Becky in one on one combat. Or she could have let Becky defeat Carmella and then told her she was coming for her. Overall, triple threat matches are bullshit and it's hard to book any pure babyface to be happy with one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 17:44:53 GMT -5
Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. I really think people are stretching when this is used as a talking point for Charlotte being "the heel." They were in a triple threat match and she beat her within the rules of the match, there's really nothing unfair about winning the way she won it. Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. She also won a single match after her return and was instantly put into the title match, while Becky had to go on a winning streak to earn the same opportunity. Becky not going after Paige for her bad management, or decrying the Triple Threat match concept itself is bad writing. I think the bad writing is in WWE expecting fans to boo Becky in the first place, but on paper I think the story is pretty solid. I don't consider Becky targeting Charlotte bad writing, people are flawed and their perspective on what's wrong in their life isn't always gonna be perfect. Paige made an ill-thought booking decision for the sake of putting on a good show, Becky has a right to be upset but took it too far, Charlotte never acted maliciously but she was fairly ignorant to Becky's frustration. There's an amicable solution to the problem but neither of their egos will allow for it and now they gotta fight. All in all I think this is the best storyline WWE's got right now. It has elements of Bret/Austin in there, chances are like most things it'll fall apart but so far I dig it.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Sept 5, 2018 17:45:34 GMT -5
Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour. Fair point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:01:38 GMT -5
I want Becky to start cutting promos like the awesome Austin promos in the lead up to Survivor Series 1996. "Pink robes. What the hell's that all about, Charlotte?" "The Princess of Staten Island kicked your ass back to The Queen City!" I tried to come up with something as cool as "put an 'S' in front of Hitman" but the best I could come up with is: "Charlotte? More like Char-shit!" "If you take out the W in woo and replace it with a P, you'll have my exact opinion of Charlotte Flair."
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 5, 2018 18:14:10 GMT -5
Charlotte pinning Becky off of a "cheap" from-behind move like Natural Selection seems more heelish than if she simply broke up the Disarm-Her and fought Becky face-to-face with Carmella on the outside. I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour. At least for getting the win in a multi-man match, it kind of is. That's a lot of the problem; they booked a heel finish in there. Charlotte, the expected face in this story, didn't really get a clear win, they got the pin in exactly the same kind of way you would expect Alexa Bliss or Carmella to get the pin. I don't know if that's necessarily anyone here drawing a line in the sand, because if WWE wanted it to be seen as a sensible move they probably wouldn't have it be the go-to heel way to win a match like this and would have faces do it more in times where it wouldn't be so hated. But these are expectations they set with tropes they repeatedly use in a specific way, can't really fault people for reading the story as they've learned to.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Sept 5, 2018 18:16:41 GMT -5
Who cares?! Charlotte wins. They can barely f***ing contain themselves to have her pass her dad for world titles and release a DVD. Let’s get this over with.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Sept 5, 2018 18:21:43 GMT -5
and Carmella's a face?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:41:33 GMT -5
I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour. At least for getting the win in a multi-man match, it kind of is. That's a lot of the problem; they booked a heel finish in there. Charlotte, the expected face in this story, didn't really get a clear win, they got the pin in exactly the same kind of way you would expect Alexa Bliss or Carmella to get the pin. I don't know if that's necessarily anyone here drawing a line in the sand, because if WWE wanted it to be seen as a sensible move they probably wouldn't have it be the go-to heel way to win a match like this and would have faces do it more in times where it wouldn't be so hated. But these are expectations they set with tropes they repeatedly use in a specific way, can't really fault people for reading the story as they've learned to. I don't think it really matters that much. If Becky won the same way no one would care at all, and if Charlotte beat Becky in more "straight up" fashion it wouldn't have changed anything either. They screwed the pooch having Charlotte win if they didn't want people to boo her, but the result was the bigger problem than the means she took to get there.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Sept 5, 2018 18:45:53 GMT -5
Charlotte didn't really do anything wrong. The entire dynamic currently depends on the "Outside of kayfabe" comparison of how much Charlotte gets and how little Becky gets. In complete kayfabe, Becky is a whiner who got fairly pinned (by a move Carmella kicked out of) in a triple threat match. However, the fact that Becky has been dumped on the last few years and Charlotte is a 7 time champ muddles it.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Sept 5, 2018 18:46:02 GMT -5
I’m not sure how to feel about this, since to me it’s drawing a line in the sand that hitting any move from behind is inherently heelish behaviour. At least for getting the win in a multi-man match, it kind of is. That's a lot of the problem; they booked a heel finish in there. Charlotte, the expected face in this story, didn't really get a clear win, they got the pin in exactly the same kind of way you would expect Alexa Bliss or Carmella to get the pin. I don't know if that's necessarily anyone here drawing a line in the sand, because if WWE wanted it to be seen as a sensible move they probably wouldn't have it be the go-to heel way to win a match like this and would have faces do it more in times where it wouldn't be so hated. But these are expectations they set with tropes they repeatedly use in a specific way, can't really fault people for reading the story as they've learned to. That’s reasonable enough, but then it’s just another thing from the meta-narrative, in this case WWE regularly booking this type of finish for heels to win thus making it be seen as an explicitly heel action, that Charlotte is copping the heat for.
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Post by MrElijah on Sept 5, 2018 19:02:23 GMT -5
They really could go the Stone Cold route with Becky. Charlotte- “What did you want me to do?” Becky- What I want you to do right now is stop flapping your gums, making your stupid excuses and get ready for me to whip your ass!” They are trying for way too much nuance on the heel/face thing since Becky’s turn blew up in their face. Just make her an ass kicker who is supremely focused on the belt. I want Becky to start cutting promos like the awesome Austin promos in the lead up to Survivor Series 1996. "Pink robes. What the hell's that all about, Charlotte?" "The Princess of Staten Island kicked your ass back to The Queen City!" *After a grueling cage match with...let's say Rousey* Tom: Charlotte, you must be frustrated.... *Flair pushes Tom down*. Charlotte: FRUSTRATED ISN'T THE GODDAMNED WORD FOR IT! THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 5, 2018 19:13:13 GMT -5
At least for getting the win in a multi-man match, it kind of is. That's a lot of the problem; they booked a heel finish in there. Charlotte, the expected face in this story, didn't really get a clear win, they got the pin in exactly the same kind of way you would expect Alexa Bliss or Carmella to get the pin. I don't know if that's necessarily anyone here drawing a line in the sand, because if WWE wanted it to be seen as a sensible move they probably wouldn't have it be the go-to heel way to win a match like this and would have faces do it more in times where it wouldn't be so hated. But these are expectations they set with tropes they repeatedly use in a specific way, can't really fault people for reading the story as they've learned to. I don't think it really matters that much. If Becky won the same way no one would care at all, and if Charlotte beat Becky in more "straight up" fashion it wouldn't have changed anything either. They screwed the pooch having Charlotte win if they didn't want people to boo her, but the result was the bigger problem than the means she took to get there. Charlotte winning was an outcome people didn't want, but I think that if Becky had won through a heel means it wouldn't have been quite as great either. Not outright hated, because Becky is the face people actually had sympathy for, but I can also envision a situation where people are posting "It would have been nice if she had gotten a bit more of a legitimate win" and then posts from people to the effect of "Becky won and you still aren't happy, f***ing smarks". It ties further into the narrative of Charlotte getting her way into the match; the entire thread of Charlotte's entry into this story was also seemingly a heel move and people called that out from early on, this just continued it. One weird, questionable decision versus several building up is pretty bad. At least for getting the win in a multi-man match, it kind of is. That's a lot of the problem; they booked a heel finish in there. Charlotte, the expected face in this story, didn't really get a clear win, they got the pin in exactly the same kind of way you would expect Alexa Bliss or Carmella to get the pin. I don't know if that's necessarily anyone here drawing a line in the sand, because if WWE wanted it to be seen as a sensible move they probably wouldn't have it be the go-to heel way to win a match like this and would have faces do it more in times where it wouldn't be so hated. But these are expectations they set with tropes they repeatedly use in a specific way, can't really fault people for reading the story as they've learned to. That’s reasonable enough, but then it’s just another thing from the meta-narrative, in this case WWE regularly booking this type of finish for heels to win thus making it be seen as an explicitly heel action, that Charlotte is copping the heat for. Absolutely; it's a lot of why I dive in on shitting on Vince and the creative team for stuff like this rather than the talent. Charlotte's fine, she's just been horrifically mishandled and the office's favoritism over her has bled into peoples' perception of her, which isn't totally fair.
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