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Post by realist on Nov 27, 2018 9:35:15 GMT -5
The show is too negative. The good guys never stand tall for long on Raw. The only one who ever did was Roman Reigns, and the audience hated him, so I don't even know if he really counts.
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Post by cabbageboy on Nov 27, 2018 11:24:04 GMT -5
I mentioned 1982 Mid-South as being the closest thing to modern WWE in terms of relentlessly bleak TV with heels constantly dominating. 1984 Mid-South would be a better formula to follow since heels did horrible things one week but the next the faces came back and beat the crap out of them. It was more of a give and take, back and forth. Or at least if heels did attack repeatedly it was done in such zany, weird fashion that it was still fun to watch (Midnights tar and feathering Magnum TA, Cornette attacking the RNRs in drag, etc.).
That's one problem with Raw. The heel attacks are sooooo boring. Last night they did a plodding beat down on Elias, plodding beating on Balor, etc. Again, it's like that 1982 Mid-South stuff with the Samoans and OMG crushing everyone in dull fashion, except here Skandor Akbar is also the GM so it's perfectly legal.
It's a stark contrast to the Cena era where it was the opposite, where fans got sick of the superman push and heels having no real heat. Why not just be like WWF in the 1980s? Heels did something bad, but the faces usually won in the end.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Nov 27, 2018 11:52:51 GMT -5
Their needs to be a solution but as you said you can’t make everyone happy
I could easily see if they had done something like Finn vs Lashley, Corbin and Drew and Finn got the roll up victory against Lashley, the “Lashley is a bitch thread” wouldn’t be too far behind
They are too far on the heel spectrum right now with everything looking bleak. Corbin is going to get his eventually but what’s to stop the next person from continuing this trend
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Post by sportatorium on Nov 27, 2018 12:07:54 GMT -5
It isn’t the mechanism, it’s the parts in the machine. They have spent the last year protecting Drew McIntyre and now he’s in a faction that would turn League of Nations into hot babyfaces. Elias is entertaining, but he isn’t a babyface that the audience feels passionate about seeing win. They want him to do his music schtick- he’s never told us why winning and losing matches matter. Finn Balor is smaller in stature than everyone else- that’s his story. He went without his rematch for the Universal title and didn’t get to cut the promo challenging Roman Reigns, he just smiles creepy.
The heels- Corbin wants to be GM. Lashley has a guy who talks and bends over a lot. Drew seems to be hoping that this angle doesn’t kill him dead. I don’t hate these guys anymore than I like the babyfaces. I’m kinda interested in Strowman beating Corbin, but only to make this dumb storyline go away rather than wanting the villain to get what’s coming to him.
The women are actually trying to get it right, but their execution & acting is terrible. Nia Jax’s delivery is that of a sarcastic librarian from an SNL sketch. Ronda needs to be a woman of few words who lets her fighting do her talking. I guess Tamina is good at standing there.
Just get back to basics. Have Lashley in a match with a lower card wrestler & start to reenact how he took Kevin Owens out. Have a babyface run in simply because it isn’t right. Lashley runs from the babyface & then attacks from behind next chance he gets. Make me want to see the babyface get his hands on him.
Right now, I want to care, but really don’t.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 27, 2018 12:29:52 GMT -5
Their needs to be a solution but as you said you can’t make everyone happy I could easily see if they had done something like Finn vs Lashley, Corbin and Drew and Finn got the roll up victory against Lashley, the “Lashley is a bitch thread” wouldn’t be too far behind They are too far on the heel spectrum right now with everything looking bleak. Corbin is going to get his eventually but what’s to stop the next person from continuing this trend They could bring in somebody to act as a balance to (likely) heel GM Alexa to act in the same manner as Sheriff Stone Cold when Bischoff was GM.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 12:59:01 GMT -5
Wait so heels are dominating Raw, the babyfaces look like ass, there is a female who is “overseeing” the women’s division, the weekly shows are considered nonsensical, a bunch of turns with no build up, Samoa Joe is a bitch......
You guys were so worried about WWE becoming 2000 WCW, but they have found a way to turn into 2011 TNA instead.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 27, 2018 16:27:15 GMT -5
I mentioned 1982 Mid-South as being the closest thing to modern WWE in terms of relentlessly bleak TV with heels constantly dominating. 1984 Mid-South would be a better formula to follow since heels did horrible things one week but the next the faces came back and beat the crap out of them. It was more of a give and take, back and forth. Or at least if heels did attack repeatedly it was done in such zany, weird fashion that it was still fun to watch (Midnights tar and feathering Magnum TA, Cornette attacking the RNRs in drag, etc.). That's one problem with Raw. The heel attacks are sooooo boring. Last night they did a plodding beat down on Elias, plodding beating on Balor, etc. Again, it's like that 1982 Mid-South stuff with the Samoans and OMG crushing everyone in dull fashion, except here Skandor Akbar is also the GM so it's perfectly legal. It's a stark contrast to the Cena era where it was the opposite, where fans got sick of the superman push and heels having no real heat. Why not just be like WWF in the 1980s? Heels did something bad, but the faces usually won in the end. 80s WWF would be good medicine for modern Raw because it almost always had a slight babyface lean. There were strong heels and strong faces in the mix, with a top face who was the toughest to pin and usually sent fans home happy.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 73,747
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Post by Chiral on Nov 27, 2018 17:31:19 GMT -5
I mentioned 1982 Mid-South as being the closest thing to modern WWE in terms of relentlessly bleak TV with heels constantly dominating. 1984 Mid-South would be a better formula to follow since heels did horrible things one week but the next the faces came back and beat the crap out of them. It was more of a give and take, back and forth. Or at least if heels did attack repeatedly it was done in such zany, weird fashion that it was still fun to watch (Midnights tar and feathering Magnum TA, Cornette attacking the RNRs in drag, etc.). That's one problem with Raw. The heel attacks are sooooo boring. Last night they did a plodding beat down on Elias, plodding beating on Balor, etc. Again, it's like that 1982 Mid-South stuff with the Samoans and OMG crushing everyone in dull fashion, except here Skandor Akbar is also the GM so it's perfectly legal. It's a stark contrast to the Cena era where it was the opposite, where fans got sick of the superman push and heels having no real heat. Why not just be like WWF in the 1980s? Heels did something bad, but the faces usually won in the end. They need a better balance because they always lean too far one way in the modern eras, either a sole superface completely dominates every plot beat with the sole win the heels get is like "I MADE YOU MAD ONCE, I STILL LOST BUT YOU GOT MAD SO YOU'RE THE REAL VILLAIN", or just heels winning EVERYTHING. Both Raw and Smackdown are just so depressing to watch, the HEAT HEAT HEAT booking leads to every face turning heel for the shocked reaction shots in the crowd, then there isn't anything afterwards to make the turn worth it. Then the heels pretty much just win most of everything anyways and spend most of the time gloating about it. WWE nowadays is just narratively kicking the audience in the gut over and over and there's no heroic catharsis. There aren't any climbs to the top either, the only people who really break through just suddenly win the world title so there's no ongoing thing for the audience to really cling to.
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
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Post by Sam Punk on Nov 30, 2018 9:32:23 GMT -5
I'd much rather see the faces dominate.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,729
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Post by lucas_lee on Nov 30, 2018 10:19:21 GMT -5
Its really weird how NxT and other shows have found a balance that RAW cant find. Even Smackdown does a better job than RAW with this.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 30, 2018 10:59:07 GMT -5
Its really weird how NxT and other shows have found a balance that RAW cant find. Even Smackdown does a better job than RAW with this. For comparison: on SDL this past week, only two segments (three if you count Joe ruining Jeff Hardy's party) ended with the heel dominating (Nakamura beating up Rusev and Orton beating down Rey).
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Nov 30, 2018 11:42:57 GMT -5
I agree that faces need to be winning more and in decisive fashion. I disagree about the shoving fans aside for the sake of building the face though. That shit drove masses of fans away in both the Cena decade and the few years with Roman. The solution is pretty damn simple, listen to the audience and push who is cheered as a face. You know, exactly how wrestling has overall always worked. Why this isn't a common thing anymore for the main WWE roster is way beyond my understanding.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 30, 2018 17:53:55 GMT -5
I think a key factor is needing a purpose behind pushes, and things need to be done with commitment to strong storytelling and characterization. Here is a very long video essay by Real Neat Puro (about 90 minutes!). It's called "Kazuchika Okada: An Arugument for Best in the World": www.youtube.com/watch?v=HczlaPC633UEven if you don't want to listen to all that (but you should, RNP is really good!), one of the key points in the essay is this: Kazuchika Okada is not necessarily the most popular wrestler in New Japan, he's not necessarily the most beloved, but I'll be damned if the man doesn't sell tickets and if his marquee matches don't generate some serious interest. Basically, New Japan banked on Okada to be their top draw, but didn't book him as a babyface, and even when he stopped being a heel he's never really come all the way around to being a pure face, instead acting more like a chameleon, adapting to whomever he's facing (in peril against sadist Minoru Suzuki, cocky dickhead against crowd favorite Katsuyori Shibata, etc.). No matter what, though, he's the Rainmaker, and his matches and booking allow him to be consistent in his personality, demeanor, and presentation. Naito and Tanahashi are more popular with the home crowds in Japan, but by committing to Okada as ace (and Okada himself maintaining the spot by being so damn good at what he does) NJPW still created a character people want to pay to see, whether it's to see him continue a legendary title reign or whether it's to see if this is the day he'll finally be toppled. There's a story there, and people want to experience it. Just so, WWE has made a key mistake, in my book, since the Cena years: they insist on acting like their top champions are also the most beloved faces in the company. John Cena and Roman Reigns, for some reasons often beyond their own control, were never the absolute crowd favorites...and, honestly, that's not a bad thing. You want them to be your top guys? Go ahead, book them as your top guys. But don't ignore the crowd reactions they're drawing or how they're perceived by your fanbase; instead, lean into that, integrate it into their character, and let them be a force to be reckoned with rather than trying to shoehorn them into a role the audience clearly isn't interested in seeing them fill. Play to your performers' strengths, then commit to a vision of them based on how well they pull it off and how the crowd responds to them; don't book Roman to choke on the biggest stage, don't book Cena to be an underdog, just friggin' commit. Go ahead, let Cena "be the odds"; go ahead, let Roman be a monster who can tear through people with strong offense. That's how you tell stories, not by force feeding and not by swerving expectations with no plan beyond that swerve. Plus, a big problem with the classic face/heel dynamic right now is the weekly supershow format that is Raw (and SD, to a slightly lesser extent). With every show being so long and having so many marquee matches on it, it's too easy to burn through matchups and angles, and you keep running these people out there every week because you're scared of ratings dropping and USA/NBC giving you a worse TV deal next round of negotiations. This means having traditional face and heel moments can be tough. Don't forget, Jake Roberts vs. Randy Savage worked off of one, literally one in-ring angle to set up the entire feud, that being Jake using the cobra to bite Savage. The rest? All promos, or Jake making mention of Savage after he squashed a jobber. That's it. The modern format won't allow that without wholesale changes in the way WWE does things. That's why I agree with the idea of using jobbers more often, spacing out in-ring appearances for the top guys most often (not Brock style, but in a way that makes sense and feels like a real combat sport), but very importantly with committing to fully fleshed out characters with discernible, even if simple, motivations. Let the crowds react to them as they will, but don't pretend those reactions aren't happening, let them be integrated into the stories you're telling.
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Shark
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The world's only Samurai Ninja Pirate
Posts: 7,045
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Post by Shark on Nov 30, 2018 18:14:34 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem Raw has right now is who is supposed to be the conquering hero? Who is that light at the end of the tunnel that will stand tall? Elias is over, but not to the degree he needs to be. Balor I think is the best option but his booking has been so terrible that they need to fix that first. Braun is out with injury, who knows when he'll even be back. Rollins is a great option, he's booked well, he wins most of the time, he's Goethe fan support. He's just so far removed from where the rest are. Ironically, I think their best option is Drew. He's been booked amazing since his return. I think if he turned face, he'd get over huge.
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Post by sunnytaker on Nov 30, 2018 18:29:46 GMT -5
Another real gripe is that the babyfaces are apparently cool with being outnumbered without the thought of possible banding together. Crews: Oh, Elias is getting his ass kicked out there....should we help? Rhyno: Im busy eating this grilled cheese Finn: Yeah, I'm sure he'll be fine..... I'm also sure I'll have better luck later with this exact same scenario yeah the whole "heels work together better than faces do" thing has annoyed me for a while now. you'd think the heroes would be the first ones out to try and help their friends. I mean sure the heels get the jump on the guy in the ring and beat him/her down but then the other valiant faces realize what is happening and rush down to thwart the dastardly heels and save, if not their friend, their fellow respected competitor. especially during the five-ten minute beatdown segments. as it is your only hope is if you're part of a group then those people (and only those people) might come and help you. even if it's just the martial arts movie group combat rules where the faces come at the heels one by one and get destroyed instead of attacking as a group. at least they tried to do something. instead it is the betraying, backstabbing untrustworthy heels who work together like a well oiled machine in order to destroy the heroes of the fans for whatever reason they want. they even go as far as planning ambushes in advance to ensure their evil plans work out the way they want. that was one thing I really liked about Owens, he was the heel who acted like a heel to other heels- how many times did he walk out on a tag partner and leave them hanging?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2018 19:01:09 GMT -5
There needs to be an infinitely better balance and I don't think they need to shove everyone off to the side, partly because they've done that to terrible and alienating results, and partly because there are ready-to-go faces the audience wants to see succeed. The biggest problem is that WWE has become a heel territory, but not a heel territory like "Oh, that nasty Flair cheated his way to a win again, when will someone beat him?" but a heel territory like the when a superhero gets transported to an alternate universe where the villains won/all the heroes turned evil and everything sucks for everyone all the time. Except swerve the hero who gets transported dies instead of saving anything, because we worked you, f***ing mark.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
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Post by chrom on Nov 30, 2018 20:00:18 GMT -5
As its been stated on here, nobody watches Star Wars hoping to see the Death Star blow up Yavin IV
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Post by willywonka666 on Nov 30, 2018 20:28:09 GMT -5
I think Goldberg was one of the last great good guys the had.
I think Hogan is the best since he caught fire in the AWA.
They were tops in their game and could back things up.
Add Hogan's charisma and I was literally cheering when he fought the bad guys.
I want someone I can believe in, to be invested in, and look up to. I'm 43 and still want this.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 30, 2018 20:55:29 GMT -5
I'm still bitter we didn't get an extended run of the Shield as a badass face trio fighting off heels and rescuing faces.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 30, 2018 21:03:42 GMT -5
I agree that faces need to be winning more and in decisive fashion. I disagree about the shoving fans aside for the sake of building the face though. That shit drove masses of fans away in both the Cena decade and the few years with Roman. The solution is pretty damn simple, listen to the audience and push who is cheered as a face. You know, exactly how wrestling has overall always worked. Why this isn't a common thing anymore for the main WWE roster is way beyond my understanding. Yeah, pushing Roman as the number one face when the crowd were not down for it... ESPECIALLY when there were plenty of other options the fans would be totally down for was driving people away in force... the crowd are telling you who they like... you get INSTANT feedback as to what they like... every other show on the planet WOULD KILL for that type of fan feedback... on a scripted tv show they have to wait until whatever they have shot already has aired before they can pivot and give more screen time to fan favorites... WWE is LIVE every week... and the crowd let them know IMMEDIATELY what they want more of... LISTEN TO THEM. I think Faces need to dominate more... but they still need to have the Heels that actually challenge the face until the face can dominate... I mean Hogan was out for weeks when EArthquake "broke his back" for instance... if they booked Hogan like they were booking Roman for most of his run... he'd have rolled out of the way of the Splash ... speared Earthquake... and then gloated about it every week until the match... and then he'd get beat up for 20 minutes until Roman superman punch, spear... pin.
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