Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2018 7:53:23 GMT -5
Bret wasn't the draw in Europe, the product was. In the same way it is today. Because Europe got far fewer events the events they got were a bigger deal, regardless of who was on the card then, now (...forever). A card that would draw poorly in the states would likely draw very well in Europe because of this. If attendances during tours were poor before Bret became the top guy and poor after he left then the argument could be made. But truth is WWE was a hot ticket in Europe before Bret was featured, during the time Bret was featured and after Bret left.
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Post by abjordans on Dec 16, 2018 8:31:54 GMT -5
Saying Bret cemented Austin isn’t saying Austin only went the direction he did because of that feud. But, they were the perfect storm of chemistry, characters, being great foils to really send Austin into the stratosphere. Austin is not Austin without the Bret feud. I think Bret is under appreciated.. Bret and HBK both get painted with the brush that things went in the shitter with them on top and they sunk things, but to me they were what kept the company afloat during those lean years and the only thing people would pay for. They were literally the best options to be on top at that time. Plus, Bret Hart was always incredibly over. He was never over pushed for how over he was compared to everyone else. He was the most over guy during his time on top. Bret also was the guy WWE based their worldwide expansion off of. They established their presence in Europe and other places off the popularity of Bret and that revenue kept the company going during tight times. It was more Davey Boy that they had to thank for getting their foot in the door in Europe and the UK especially. It was him who headlined the major tours throughout the WWF's burst of popularity during the early 90's. Bret may have maintained a portion of that audience, but he certainly didn't establish it. Dave Boy wasn’t headlining around the world in 93 94 95 96, that kept the lights on.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Dec 16, 2018 8:43:58 GMT -5
I think the evidence of this thread is yes, Bret certainly IS underrated!
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Dec 16, 2018 8:46:13 GMT -5
Bret’s one of my five favorite workers ever. He felt like a real athlete. His matches were about finding a way to win (he gets derided for having the Five Moves of Doom, but he almost never won big matches with any of them). Bret’s main event matches feel as close to a sport as any I’ve ever seen. There’s strategy, injuries, callbacks to either actions, etc. It’s top level stuff. His promos sounded like a real guy who was really living through this situation instead of a cartoon character. He looked imposing but in a natural way. He is the Larry Bird of wrestling in my book. The Everyman superstar (who also is a bit full of himself, but also endearing and self deprecating).
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dav
Hank Scorpio
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Post by dav on Dec 16, 2018 12:00:58 GMT -5
It was more Davey Boy that they had to thank for getting their foot in the door in Europe and the UK especially. It was him who headlined the major tours throughout the WWF's burst of popularity during the early 90's. Bret may have maintained a portion of that audience, but he certainly didn't establish it. Dave Boy wasn’t headlining around the world in 93 94 95 96, that kept the lights on. As I said, my point wasn't that Bret didn't maintain a portion of the audience, he did (Although he was only really on top in 1994, other wrestlers were featured above him elsewhere in other years). My point was that he didn't create this audience in Europe in the early 90's, the WWF got it for a variety of reasons and Davey Boy was key among them.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
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Post by dav on Dec 16, 2018 12:14:20 GMT -5
Which really doesn't take away from my point, that the fans in Europe were there for Davey Boy. Bret only kept some of that audience going and Bulldog was always front and centre on thise tours, not Bret. Yes and no. In '91 and early '92 sure. Davey Boy usually headlined or had featured matches against the likes of Flair and Undertaker, and was heavily promoted. He was the golden goose when it came to the European market. In the European tours from mid-'92 until his departure later that year, Davey Boy made no appearances. When he returned a couple of years later, Bret was headlining almost everything and Davey Boy was stuck in the midcard working against Neidhart, Buddy, or teaming with Luger. The only time he ever featured prominently in European tours after early-'92 was when teaming with Bret, Owen and as part of the Hart Foundation. Davey Boy was clearly a draw in Europe, especially early on, but attendances didn't really dip whenever he wasn't part of a tour, and didn't spike when he was. Which was my point. That Bret didn't create the market and Bulldog doesn't get his fair share of credit when it comes to wrestling in general. Out of curiosity, which tours were you looking at? Could only find one in Germany where Bret and Bulldog shared similar positions on the card in 1995 except for one event with Bret vs. Owen in a no holds barred match. Which was odd as the exact same match with the same stipulation was then done on the midcard later on.
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Post by abjordans on Dec 16, 2018 12:45:54 GMT -5
Dave Boy wasn’t headlining around the world in 93 94 95 96, that kept the lights on. As I said, my point wasn't that Bret didn't maintain a portion of the audience, he did (Although he was only really on top in 1994, other wrestlers were featured above him elsewhere in other years). My point was that he didn't create this audience in Europe in the early 90's, the WWF got it for a variety of reasons and Davey Boy was key among them. Are you saying Bret wasn’t a draw overseas? Because I recognize Davey was too, just that Bret’s role in worldwide expansion often doesn’t get put on his resume like it should in my opinion.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,050
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Post by dav on Dec 16, 2018 13:28:15 GMT -5
As I said, my point wasn't that Bret didn't maintain a portion of the audience, he did (Although he was only really on top in 1994, other wrestlers were featured above him elsewhere in other years). My point was that he didn't create this audience in Europe in the early 90's, the WWF got it for a variety of reasons and Davey Boy was key among them. Are you saying Bret wasn’t a draw overseas? Because I recognize Davey was too, just that Bret’s role in worldwide expansion often doesn’t get put on his resume like it should in my opinion. No, I wasn't saying that. As I said before. Bret didn't create the European market. That is the point I've said several times at this juncture. Bret wasn't responsible for the explosion of popularity that the WWF enjoyed in Europe at any point. There were a number of factors in place, but Davey Boy was the wrestler who was crucial in making the company as popular it was in that time period.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Dec 16, 2018 15:44:24 GMT -5
People say Bret was bad at promos.
Care to show promos where he was bad? Other than the typical overrunning one against Shawn where he was in a wheelchair, or the "stones are so cold" soundbite. He was gritty and real. No he wasn't one of the 'best' in that department. But he wasn't like Brock Lesnar, he didn't need a mouthpiece. He, as far as I'm aware, never had half the brain that Sid had (even though he was actually a great promo guy as well under the right circumstances).
If anything, Bret succeeded despite almost being buried for most of his title runs (save his very first run). Go back and look at the wins/losses for the subsequent reigns. We'd say anyone else booked like that was hampered, but not Bret because he made it work.
Saying that, there have been threads on this forum decrying Bret as being terrible and pretty average. I guess it takes over 2 decades removed to be appreciated.
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Post by The Trashman on Dec 16, 2018 16:34:28 GMT -5
Yes because he is the greatest pro wrestler of all time.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 16, 2018 16:44:09 GMT -5
Yes he is, keep in mind that Bret actually started with the wwe in 84 and alternated between being a jobber to the stars or tag guy for close to eight years before being booked in stuff that mattered. You could say that Bret wasted his best years by being on the undercard. If it wasn’t for the steroid trial there’s a chance he never gets pushed. To be fair, being a tag guy then wasn't the same as being a tag guy now. The tag team division in that period was smoking hot and this was before WWE decided they needed to split every tag team ever in search of a solo star. That said, it's possible that if the scandal never happened he may have been pigeonholed.
I was a huge fan of Bret's growing up (born in the early 80s). Sadly I missed his heel turn in WWE as there were about 2-3 years where I didn't have access to the show and it was late 97 before I was able to watch again. His WCW run did him no favours apart from a few great moments. Mostly he was misused though. That plus his forced retirement because of the concussion really hindered his overall standing in a lot of people's eyes I think.
It’s true that tag teams were more important back then, but Bret was bitter that he was the one who always got his ass kicked and Jim would save him at the end, at first the office saw potential in Neidhart and not Bret.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 0:31:00 GMT -5
Bret's on my "Mount Rushmore", so obviously in my mind he's not. I've seen the rise of his WWF career since the beginning and it was quite the roller coaster ride. But he's also not had a match in almost 20 years, so that will happen when you're not active. Bret was reliable and ready for work. He spoke in a calm manner and promised he'd win for his fans. He focused on the little things that built to the finish.
I can understand if people think he is. I can also understand people who think he's awful and "his stuff doesn't hold up". There's another guy you can compare him to, another guy that checks all these boxes. Another guy who was seemingly erased from history for a long while. Some dude named Bob Backlund. They are very similar in their ringwork, promo style (okay, Bret was better than babyface Bob vocalizing in that respect, but the gist of what they said was the same) and how they conducted themselves.
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Post by mauled on Dec 18, 2018 4:15:19 GMT -5
It's 2018, Bret got his concussion in 1999 and his last match was in early 2000. The fact we are still talking about him now, shows how big he was for his time.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 18, 2018 8:32:31 GMT -5
Full disclosure, but the "H" in "HMark" stands for "Hitman", because I'm a mark for the guy.
I do think there's a generation coming up now who can't fully appreciate what Bret meant to wrestling during his hey day, plus what he had to put up with during the time he got the chance to make a run at the top of the card - first getting caught between Hogan and Vince's petty politics, then constantly having Vince trying to push other new top stars over him (Luger, Yoko, Nash, Shawn, etc.), the insanity of the Kliq during the mid-90s, and finally the booking incompetence of WCW along with all the personal tragedies in his life, it's kind of insane to look back on.
But whenever I want to make a point about how great Bret was, I always point to Royal Rumble 1994. Dude was working a long term knee injury stemming back to Survivor Series '93, he and Owen lose their tag title match to the Quebecers leading to Owen's heel turn, then during the Rumble we get to a spot where the horn sounds and nobody enters, Vince's cue to announce somberly "And that...must've been Bret Hart." A few spots later the horn sounds, the camera aims straight on at the entrance, nothing happens...but then Bret limps through the curtain to a massive pop and goes on to win the whole thing. Bret's selling makes the whole thing, and it's just so freaking good as pro wrestling storytelling.
Well, not the whole thing, because he had to split it with Luger. Because, again, the guy barely got the chance to have an unbridled, fully-company-backed run at the top.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 18, 2018 8:43:05 GMT -5
I think a big thing is that more and more guys from the 90's have become a bit more vocal about Bret not being the easiest guy to work with either in shoots. Not that people hate them like the Shawn or Hall, but multiple guys have said Bret was very difficult to work with as well just nicer. Combine that with Bret's ego rubbing people the wrong way and I think you can see why Bret tends to get some flak
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