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Post by prichardmark on Dec 15, 2018 17:17:00 GMT -5
It seems his contributions in 96-97 seems to be in terms of helping make Austin what he was prior to his feud with Vince and keeping the business afloat. Are his contributions overlooked? I always looked at Bret as potential just mid-card talent but his stuff from 96-97 (Especially 97) may have kept WWE's business afloat during the rough years. You can argue there wouldn't be an Austin or Vince if not for Bret.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 17:42:37 GMT -5
Yeah kind of. But he is the archetypal midcard player thrust into the main event but because of aptitude for the position but because of a "shit, there's no one else left" emergency. I think he'd have a better legacy today if he was never thrust into that spot and was instead remembered as probably the greatest upper-midcarder in the modern history of the business. He was a solid worker whose role should have been to make other people superstars. Becoming world champion was a definite overreach and I think it's a shame in some ways because a significant part of his legacy is going to be the guy spoke about in terms of being someone who never quite cut it as top babyface.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Dec 15, 2018 17:42:57 GMT -5
Absolutely.
Source: Bret Hart
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Dec 15, 2018 17:48:36 GMT -5
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Dec 15, 2018 17:50:31 GMT -5
Uh oh what did Seth do now?
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 15, 2018 17:53:25 GMT -5
Honestly, yes. I understand that he can turn people off by being a bit egotistical, but the truth is that most of what he says about himself is true. He was a better storyteller than most. He was a better technician than most. He did work harder than most. Just because the way he says it is obnoxious doesn't make it less true. Bret is the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 15, 2018 17:56:03 GMT -5
Sometimes. I am sometimes a bit harsh on him, but I think he was a well rounded main eventer and uniquely qualified to handle a lot of the challenges the mid-90s brought WWF. (His promo work wasn't the best, but usually didn't really need to be.)
I feel like too much of his top run is defined by Shawn, when frankly, I'd rather watch his match with Diesel than any of his Shawn outings.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 18:17:45 GMT -5
Honestly I've never really actually liked him all that much.
It might just be since his WWF run ended just before my time so in terms of live work I really only saw his WCW stuff, but even just looking back, like... I really don't buy him in a main event position, while he's definitely had some incredible matches (the Mania ones with Austin and Owen come to mind) there are also plenty of them I don't like at all (like pretty much every single match he had with Michaels) and I just don't gel with his character. Also he's a way worse promo than people tend to acknowledge, like even his good stuff is pretty mediocre.
Like, I don't by any means hate him but I've never actually especially considered him a performer I'm a fan of.
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Venti
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Post by Venti on Dec 15, 2018 18:21:12 GMT -5
I consider him one of the best of all time. He looked so realistic without ever actually hurting his opponent. I love the way he sold stuff, like being thrown into the turnbuckle.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 15, 2018 18:24:07 GMT -5
Yeah kind of. But he is the archetypal midcard player thrust into the main event but because of aptitude for the position but because of a "shit, there's no one else left" emergency. I think he'd have a better legacy today if he was never thrust into that spot and was instead remembered as probably the greatest upper-midcarder in the modern history of the business. He was a solid worker whose role should have been to make other people superstars. Becoming world champion was a definite overreach and I think it's a shame in some ways because a significant part of his legacy is going to be the guy spoke about in terms of being someone who never quite cut it as top babyface. I....don't think I've ever disagreed with anything harder in my life. Bret Hart was an absolute main event level talent, who was hobbled, not because of HIS limitations, but because the lunatic he worked for was obsessed with finding the "next Hulk Hogan" instead of trying to promote the "First Bret Hart". First with Lex, then with Diesel. It's worth noting that WWF didn't pull itself out of it's mid-90's slump until they stopped looking for another Hogan, and started embracing the first Steve Austin. If they'd done that a couple years earlier with Bret, who knows what might have been accomplished.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Dec 15, 2018 18:26:22 GMT -5
Bret was awesome.
He was brilliant as a babyface and his 97 heel run is as good as any heel run in the history of wrestling. Vince took Bret for granted, constantly trying to push other guys like Luger and Diesel and Shawn Michaels and when they'd fail he'd begrudgingly go back to Bret.
He's seen as grumpy and bitter even though most of what he says is true and he also says a lot of positive stuff about other guys from his era and wrestlers today but it doesn't get noticed as much.
He's suffered a lot of tragedies over the years, things that would have broken a lot of people but he's stayed strong. I love Bret.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 15, 2018 18:26:58 GMT -5
I can't see how anyone could underappreciate Bret Hart. He's an all-time great whose-- Yeah kind of. But he is the archetypal midcard player thrust into the main event but because of aptitude for the position but because of a "shit, there's no one else left" emergency. I think he'd have a better legacy today if he was never thrust into that spot and was instead remembered as probably the greatest upper-midcarder in the modern history of the business. He was a solid worker whose role should have been to make other people superstars. Becoming world champion was a definite overreach and I think it's a shame in some ways because a significant part of his legacy is going to be the guy spoke about in terms of being someone who never quite cut it as top babyface. Oh okay I guess people do, yeah.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Dec 15, 2018 18:32:06 GMT -5
You could see where Austin wanted to go in his brief ECW run in 1995, so I wouldn't say Bret "made" him. He was the absolute perfect opponent for Austin, like Piper was for Hogan, but Bret's stale babyface character needed Austin's ruthless bastard as an opponent just as much.
Oddly, Owen Hart may have ended up setting Austin on his eventual course even more. It was when Austin was out in the fall of 1997 where he shifted his focus from other wrestlers towards the corporate structure of the company itself, and that's where he started to really explode. Austin gave McMahon a stunner two months before Montreal and Vince's hallowed MSG went crazy for it. They knew where they were gonna go, with or without Bret.
So I think Bret's pretty fairly judged. Really good in the ring, had a year or so where he could cut a great promo, probably solidly in the large "second tier" of guys. Claiming he was the secret sauce for Austin/McMahon is a bit much for me, though.
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 15, 2018 18:34:58 GMT -5
Yes. Especially since he’s become kind of a meme around here with 4/10, tears in their eyes, and any time Seth Rollins does anything.
He was the first “new” guy in the post Hulkamamia era, with increasingly zany characters to try and play off and he was a more serious character. It’s why his feud with Owen worked so well, Owen was family plus the other side of the coin to Bret, a guy using his real name, not playing a wrestling occupation and a heel.
Who besides him of all those guys in that era would have fared as well? Shawn wasn’t there yet, Owen might as well have been invisible until his feud with Bret.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Dec 15, 2018 18:35:16 GMT -5
You could see where Austin wanted to go in his brief ECW run in 1995, so I wouldn't say Bret "made" him. He was the absolute perfect opponent for Austin, like Piper was for Hogan, but Bret's stale babyface character needed Austin's ruthless bastard as an opponent just as much. Oddly, Owen Hart may have ended up setting Austin on his eventual course even more. It was when Austin was out in the fall of 1997 where he shifted his focus from other wrestlers towards the corporate structure of the company itself, and that's where he started to really explode. Austin gave McMahon a stunner two months before Montreal and Vince's hallowed MSG went crazy for it. They knew where they were gonna go, with or without Bret. So I think Bret's pretty fairly judged. Really good in the ring, had a year or so where he could cut a great promo, probably solidly in the large "second tier" of guys. Claiming he was the secret sauce for Austin/McMahon is a bit much for me, though. I don't think it's that outrageous a statement to be honest. Before that Bret feud Austin was doing nothing, people think winning the King of the Ring was the catalyst to the big push but it wasn't really. He didn't even make the main Summerslam card that year. He was spinning his wheels before the build to Survivor Series 1996. Saying Bret made Austin may be a bit too strong, it's more that Bret gave Austin the platform to make himself.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 15, 2018 18:41:28 GMT -5
You could see where Austin wanted to go in his brief ECW run in 1995, so I wouldn't say Bret "made" him. He was the absolute perfect opponent for Austin, like Piper was for Hogan, but Bret's stale babyface character needed Austin's ruthless bastard as an opponent just as much. Oddly, Owen Hart may have ended up setting Austin on his eventual course even more. It was when Austin was out in the fall of 1997 where he shifted his focus from other wrestlers towards the corporate structure of the company itself, and that's where he started to really explode. Austin gave McMahon a stunner two months before Montreal and Vince's hallowed MSG went crazy for it. They knew where they were gonna go, with or without Bret. So I think Bret's pretty fairly judged. Really good in the ring, had a year or so where he could cut a great promo, probably solidly in the large "second tier" of guys. Claiming he was the secret sauce for Austin/McMahon is a bit much for me, though. I don't think it's that outrageous a statement to be honest. Before that Bret feud Austin was doing nothing, people think winning the King of the Ring was the catalyst to the big push but it wasn't really. He didn't even make the main Summerslam card that year. He was spinning his wheels before the build to Survivor Series 1996. Saying Bret made Austin may be a bit too strong, it's more that Bret gave Austin the platform to make himself. Right. WWE's done a REALLY great job of retroactively turning KOTR 96 into this "touchstone moment", and it is, but they also sweep under the rug that Austin did jack squat after that until October 96, and building up Bret to come back, outside of two nothing PPV matches, one against Marc Mero, and another against HHH.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 18:42:12 GMT -5
Bret is someone I liked at the time but was never one of “my guys”. I definitely appreciate his work more now looking back on it. He always found a way to make everything look as real as you could make something look in a wrestling ring, and psychology-wise very few are on his level.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 15, 2018 18:42:33 GMT -5
You could see where Austin wanted to go in his brief ECW run in 1995, so I wouldn't say Bret "made" him. He was the absolute perfect opponent for Austin, like Piper was for Hogan, but Bret's stale babyface character needed Austin's ruthless bastard as an opponent just as much. Oddly, Owen Hart may have ended up setting Austin on his eventual course even more. It was when Austin was out in the fall of 1997 where he shifted his focus from other wrestlers towards the corporate structure of the company itself, and that's where he started to really explode. Austin gave McMahon a stunner two months before Montreal and Vince's hallowed MSG went crazy for it. They knew where they were gonna go, with or without Bret. So I think Bret's pretty fairly judged. Really good in the ring, had a year or so where he could cut a great promo, probably solidly in the large "second tier" of guys. Claiming he was the secret sauce for Austin/McMahon is a bit much for me, though. I don't think it's that outrageous a statement to be honest. Before that Bret feud Austin was doing nothing, people think winning the King of the Ring was the catalyst to the big push but it wasn't really. He didn't even make the main Summerslam card that year. He was spinning his wheels before the build to Survivor Series 1996. Saying Bret made Austin may be a bit too strong, it's more that Bret gave Austin the platform to make himself. I don’t think saying Bret made Austin is a bit strong, I think it’s dead on. Austin was doing well against guys like Jake, but a broken down, visibility radically different Jake wasn’t gonna put Austin on the next level. Bret was the first guy Austin really went against the audience had strong feelings for, was relevant and collided into Bret being turned on by the audience while Austin was becoming the cool thing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 18:45:19 GMT -5
Yeah kind of. But he is the archetypal midcard player thrust into the main event but because of aptitude for the position but because of a "shit, there's no one else left" emergency. I think he'd have a better legacy today if he was never thrust into that spot and was instead remembered as probably the greatest upper-midcarder in the modern history of the business. He was a solid worker whose role should have been to make other people superstars. Becoming world champion was a definite overreach and I think it's a shame in some ways because a significant part of his legacy is going to be the guy spoke about in terms of being someone who never quite cut it as top babyface. I....don't think I've ever disagreed with anything harder in my life. Bret Hart was an absolute main event level talent, who was hobbled, not because of HIS limitations, but because the lunatic he worked for was obsessed with finding the "next Hulk Hogan" instead of trying to promote the "First Bret Hart". First with Lex, then with Diesel. It's worth noting that WWF didn't pull itself out of it's mid-90's slump until they stopped looking for another Hogan, and started embracing the first Steve Austin. If they'd done that a couple years earlier with Bret, who knows what might have been accomplished. Austin was charastmatic, could pop a crowd and talk people into the building. Different characters but fundamentally there are many similarities between Austin and Hogan if you look at the bread and butter of what a top draw is supposed to do to business metrics and the core skills used to aid that. Gift of gab, gift of shilling merchandise, gift of selling tickets. However you package that - this is the job of the top baby face in the company. Austin managed it, Hogan managed it. Bret struggled and that isn't entirely the fault of someone else.
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Post by abjordans on Dec 15, 2018 18:45:29 GMT -5
Saying Bret cemented Austin isn’t saying Austin only went the direction he did because of that feud. But, they were the perfect storm of chemistry, characters, being great foils to really send Austin into the stratosphere. Austin is not Austin without the Bret feud.
I think Bret is under appreciated.. Bret and HBK both get painted with the brush that things went in the shitter with them on top and they sunk things, but to me they were what kept the company afloat during those lean years and the only thing people would pay for. They were literally the best options to be on top at that time. Plus, Bret Hart was always incredibly over. He was never over pushed for how over he was compared to everyone else. He was the most over guy during his time on top.
Bret also was the guy WWE based their worldwide expansion off of. They established their presence in Europe and other places off the popularity of Bret and that revenue kept the company going during tight times.
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