Heels winning clean appreciation

[ChitownKnight]

I liked them booking Ambrose and Bryan to beat the top baby faces clean tonight. For all of wrestling history, the heel has had to cheat or something to beat a top face, but tonight they did what was right. Bryan narrowly escaped with a small package, while Dean played mind games with Seth and it played off

[Deleted]

To be fair I don't really know how much the Ambrose win can be considered "clean" given Seth was 100% portrayed as having him beaten, he was just an idiot who let his guard down.

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2018 23:27:28 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

To be fair I don't really know how much the Ambrose win can be considered "clean" given Seth was 100% portrayed as having him beaten, he was just an idiot who let his guard down.

Tbh, the same thing could be said for Ambrose against Triple H, Wyatt and all that other numerous losses in 2014-2015 that had people trashing him, saying he sucked and lost a lot. He lost every one of those matches in the same exact way.

And judging the .com article Ambrose mapped the entire match out from the jump.

Fittingly, Ambrose was in control of the bout from the jump, systematically whittling The Architect down with a targeted attack on Rollins’ surgically-repaired knee. Ambrose chose his target wisely; Rollins’ offense took as much out of him as it did Ambrose, and the lingering pain prevented The Kingslayer from breaking out the speed and athleticism that typically carries him to victory.

And yet, none of Ambrose’s strategy seemed to truly cause Rollins to snap — until, right as Rollins began to rally, Dean offered him the Shield fist bump in solidarity. That gesture, more than anything, was too much for Rollins to bear, and The Kingslayer lost it, pursuing his opponent outside the ring and driving him into the barricade with a bucklebomb before setting him up in the center of the ring.

The Architect blisteringly slapped Ambrose in the face and sprinted to the ropes for the Stomp, but Ambrose was waiting, and he caught The Architect with a match-ending Dirty Deeds that earned him the 1-2-3 and the Intercontinental Championship. Maybe Ambrose was right, and all those years calling him a lunatic were missing the point. He certainly called this one down the middle: He took Seth Rollins apart in ways only he knew how. Seth Rollins lost control. And Dean Ambrose took everything.

[the2ndevil]

Heels winning clean has an extra sting to them. There's no excuses. They were just better on that night.

[BatPunk]

I love it when heels win clean. Totally unexpected most of the time and gives them a little extra badassness the next time I see them.

It should happen more often when they are trying to establish a heel they wang to push.

[Moppy]

Hard to argue with many of the booking decisions from TLC. And if you're going to have a couple of heels go over clean, you'd may as well make them Daniel Bryan and Dean Ambrose.

[JCBaggee]

Dec 16, 2018 23:31:17 GMT -5 @kn said:

Dec 16, 2018 23:27:28 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

To be fair I don't really know how much the Ambrose win can be considered "clean" given Seth was 100% portrayed as having him beaten, he was just an idiot who let his guard down.

Tbh, the same thing could be said for Ambrose against Triple H, Wyatt and all that other numerous losses in 2014-2015 that had people trashing him, saying he sucked and lost a lot. He lost every one of those matches in the same exact way.

And judging the .com article Ambrose mapped the entire match out from the jump.

Fittingly, Ambrose was in control of the bout from the jump, systematically whittling The Architect down with a targeted attack on Rollins’ surgically-repaired knee. Ambrose chose his target wisely; Rollins’ offense took as much out of him as it did Ambrose, and the lingering pain prevented The Kingslayer from breaking out the speed and athleticism that typically carries him to victory.

And yet, none of Ambrose’s strategy seemed to truly cause Rollins to snap — until, right as Rollins began to rally, Dean offered him the Shield fist bump in solidarity. That gesture, more than anything, was too much for Rollins to bear, and The Kingslayer lost it, pursuing his opponent outside the ring and driving him into the barricade with a bucklebomb before setting him up in the center of the ring.

The Architect blisteringly slapped Ambrose in the face and sprinted to the ropes for the Stomp, but Ambrose was waiting, and he caught The Architect with a match-ending Dirty Deeds that earned him the 1-2-3 and the Intercontinental Championship. Maybe Ambrose was right, and all those years calling him a lunatic were missing the point. He certainly called this one down the middle: He took Seth Rollins apart in ways only he knew how. Seth Rollins lost control. And Dean Ambrose took everything.

This is the kind of thing they've built up with Ambrose, it just rarely gets played out or referenced. Ambrose goes in with a plan, and he executes the plan, and if it works he'll win handily and if it fails he'll ultimately screw himself over. The Triple H match at Roadblock was the first time I remember seeing it, where he was knocking it out of the park, but once Triple H powered through something he went off the books and lost the match.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Dec 16, 2018 23:27:28 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

To be fair I don't really know how much the Ambrose win can be considered "clean" given Seth was 100% portrayed as having him beaten, he was just an idiot who let his guard down.

That’s clean

[Bub (BLM)]

It works when the heels are over. There's nothing worse than shit like Del Rio, where he'd beat everyone from Christian to Rob Van Dam clean despite no one giving a flying f*** about him.

[schma]

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Eh, I dunno if I’d have had Bryan go over clean here necessarily. Maybe they’re not booking Styles to get it back at Mania, but if that was the plan it’s not the best way to build drama for that.

The story with Bryan feels to me like he’s so desperate to hold onto the world title this time after short reigns and a brief concussion retirement, that he has no problem taking cheap shots and shortcuts. I’m fine with it if they’re moving on from AJ in that top face spot for a while and some other face is going to topple NewBryan, but Orton practically never beat face Bryan or got the advantage on him fairly in 2013/2014. We know Bryan is a dangerous wrestler, I just think it’d have played in more to the narrative that he’s abandoning his principles if he did Styles dirty here.

[Natural Born Farmer]

Dec 17, 2018 14:20:15 GMT -5 Bub (BLM) said:

It works when the heels are over. There's nothing worse than shit like Del Rio, where he'd beat everyone from Christian to Rob Van Dam clean despite no one giving a flying f*** about him.

Bit of a chicken and egg situation though.

[YAKMAN is ICHIBAN]

Dec 17, 2018 14:31:12 GMT -5 schma said:

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

Commentary was unbearable during this match. More than usual, I mean.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2018 14:31:12 GMT -5 schma said:

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

I hate how they have Ambrose marrying Renee as part of the storyline.

Just keep real life seperate.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Dec 17, 2018 14:32:09 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Eh, I dunno if I’d have had Bryan go over clean here necessarily. Maybe they’re not booking Styles to get it back at Mania, but if that was the plan it’s not the best way to build drama for that.

The story with Bryan feels to me like he’s so desperate to hold onto the world title this time after short reigns and a brief concussion retirement, that he has no problem taking cheap shots and shortcuts. I’m fine with it if they’re moving on from AJ in that top face spot for a while and some other face is going to topple NewBryan, but Orton practically never beat face Bryan or got the advantage on him fairly in 2013/2014. We know Bryan is a dangerous wrestler, I just think it’d have played in more to the narrative that he’s abandoning his principles if he did Styles dirty here.

To be fair, Bryan did kinda use AJ almost accidentally hitting the ref with the Forearm to his advantage.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2018 14:09:30 GMT -5 JCBaggee said:

This is the kind of thing they've built up with Ambrose, it just rarely gets played out or referenced. Ambrose goes in with a plan, and he executes the plan, and if it works he'll win handily and if it fails he'll ultimately screw himself over. The Triple H match at Roadblock was the first time I remember seeing it, where he was knocking it out of the park, but once Triple H powered through something he went off the books and lost the match.

Dec 17, 2018 14:31:12 GMT -5 schma said:

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

You both are right.

Ambrose being the strategic planner has been part of his character for a long while. The thing is that the company rarely plays it up and when it is brought up it's played up behind something else. Like stated it worked with Triple H, worked in those numerous times he ambushed Rollins, it worked against many opponents and it worked last night. It's even been working in this feud given if you listened to Ambrose's promos he mentioned that he's going to force Rollins to lose control and when that happens he, Ambrose, will get the belt. That's what happened last night, Rollins let loose and then Ambrose used that to beat him. It's part of his plan.

But a big problem with this storyline is that they haven't really let the audience know that Ambrose has been saying a lot of this stuff to cause Rollins to lose control just so he can take things from him. He took down his arsenal in that match, took down his control and then took his belt.

But at the end of the day all we see is how this feud's being portrayed. That's due to the writers who are being controlled by Vince. Ambrose and Rollins are trying to portray it as best they can but we gotta get something else. They need a longer promo package and basically need a way to do this better.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Dec 17, 2018 15:33:49 GMT -5 @kn said:

Dec 17, 2018 14:09:30 GMT -5 JCBaggee said:

This is the kind of thing they've built up with Ambrose, it just rarely gets played out or referenced. Ambrose goes in with a plan, and he executes the plan, and if it works he'll win handily and if it fails he'll ultimately screw himself over. The Triple H match at Roadblock was the first time I remember seeing it, where he was knocking it out of the park, but once Triple H powered through something he went off the books and lost the match.

Dec 17, 2018 14:31:12 GMT -5 schma said:

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

You both are right.

Ambrose being the strategic planner has been part of his character for a long while. The thing is that the company rarely plays it up and when it is brought up it's played up behind something else. Like stated it worked with Triple H, worked in those numerous times he ambushed Rollins, it worked against many opponents and it worked last night. It's even been working in this feud given if you listened to Ambrose's promos he mentioned that he's going to force Rollins to lose control and when that happens he, Ambrose, will get the belt. That's what happened last night, Rollins let loose and then Ambrose used that to beat him. It's part of his plan.

But a big problem with this storyline is that they haven't really let the audience know that Ambrose has been saying a lot of this stuff to cause Rollins to lose control just so he can take things from him. He took down his arsenal in that match, took down his control and then took his belt.

But at the end of the day all we see is how this feud's being portrayed. That's due to the writers. Ambrose and Rollins are trying to portray it as best they can but we gotta get something else. They need a longer promo package and basically need a way to do this better.

The problem is sort of two fold

This feud has been a slow build which I would be fine with BUT WWE wants to find ways to push this feud further while trying to be lazy

I would honestly been fine if this was a blow off match until next year around Summerslam because the minute they fight neither guy should be walking out the ring under their own power

You have Seth eliminate Ambrose in the rumble to get a measure of revenge and have him fight Lesnar.

While I haven’t been crazy about the Gargano heel turn, they’ve done a good job keeping him, Ciampa and Black around each other with guy having an issue with each other. Ciampa is still able to defend against other people but we all know he has unfinished business whether he’s champ or not

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2018 16:17:39 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

Dec 17, 2018 15:33:49 GMT -5 @kn said:

You both are right.

Ambrose being the strategic planner has been part of his character for a long while. The thing is that the company rarely plays it up and when it is brought up it's played up behind something else. Like stated it worked with Triple H, worked in those numerous times he ambushed Rollins, it worked against many opponents and it worked last night. It's even been working in this feud given if you listened to Ambrose's promos he mentioned that he's going to force Rollins to lose control and when that happens he, Ambrose, will get the belt. That's what happened last night, Rollins let loose and then Ambrose used that to beat him. It's part of his plan.

But a big problem with this storyline is that they haven't really let the audience know that Ambrose has been saying a lot of this stuff to cause Rollins to lose control just so he can take things from him. He took down his arsenal in that match, took down his control and then took his belt.

But at the end of the day all we see is how this feud's being portrayed. That's due to the writers. Ambrose and Rollins are trying to portray it as best they can but we gotta get something else. They need a longer promo package and basically need a way to do this better.

The problem is sort of two fold

This feud has been a slow build which I would be fine with BUT WWE wants to find ways to push this feud further while trying to be lazy

I would honestly been fine if this was a blow off match until next year around Summerslam because the minute they fight neither guy should be walking out the ring under their own power

You have Seth eliminate Ambrose in the rumble to get a measure of revenge and have him fight Lesnar.

While I haven’t been crazy about the Gargano heel turn, they’ve done a good job keeping him, Ciampa and Black around each other with guy having an issue with each other. Ciampa is still able to defend against other people but we all know he has unfinished business whether he’s champ or not

They're also trying to fit too many things into this one feud so if it's not all explained it's a lot of digging. You've got the whole "I'm not a lunatic, I'm smarter than you think" thing, you've got the Reigns thing, you've got the "I gotta cleanse everything" thing, you've got the "you're going to lose control" thing, you've got the Shield thing, it's a lot of stuff. Most of that isn't explained in a way that the audience gets it so most people only see the Reigns and the germ stuff since that's the worst part to them. In the grand scheme of things it all connects but it's just not explained well. Had they introduced things little by little and broke it down more it would be perceived differently by people.

I'm guessing they'll have 2 matches at the Rumble. One being a blow off and the other being the actual Rumble match itself where Rollins gets Ambrose out of it. Ambrose can win the match, Rollins can eliminate Ambrose, they can keep things moving while keeping both guys protected. Like you said the Gargano Black stuff is working out right now to a degree. They just need to organize things better with this one.

[Sephiroth]

Kevin Owens going over Cena and Brock Lesnar ending The Streak. In both cases it was just one of those instances where it took a few seconds for it to really set in that yeah, that did just actually happen.

[schma]

Dec 17, 2018 14:43:54 GMT -5 YAKMAN is ICHIBAN said:

Dec 17, 2018 14:31:12 GMT -5 schma said:

Renee was playing up how methodical Dean was last night. At one point she even said something like you all keep calling him a lunatic but look at how he's in total control of this match.

Commentary was unbearable during this match. More than usual, I mean.

They really needed to focus more on the match. Corey especially with his constant needling of renee was bad. Twice Cole told him to get back to calling the match and I was thankful. The one upside is that renee was making some strong points about dean. In general though, yes the commentary on that match was terrible.