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Post by Joe Neglia on Jan 13, 2019 18:26:22 GMT -5
I think there has genuinely been some restriction of ill behaviour in the territories by the fact that very, _very_ few women were in the business during the 1970s and particularly the 1980s outside of Moolah-managed talent and the GLOW promotion (we'd have heard about it from Ivory if there had been). The valets in the business, almost every last one of them, were either long-term romantically involved or married to their wrestler(s), were related by blood to some of the talent, or were brought in specifically for their roles by management with a Very Clear Understanding that nothing untoward was to happen with them. I can imagine that any ill behaviour towards women and others risked unwanted attention from outside and a threat to kayfabe. The notion that there weren't many women wrestlers outside of Moolah's crowd and the GLOW is a myth. There were literally dozens and dozens of others out there any given year of that time period that had nothing to do with either Moolah or GLOW. There was the group that included Misty Blue Simmes, Linda Dallas, Kat LeRoux and several others. Susan Sexton, Madusa Micelli, etc. Name one example of the Very Clear Understanding, because I can't tell you one such myself. Dude, the 1970s and 80s were rampant, in every promotion, with "ill behaviour" toward women, especially when it came to what they did with "ring rats" including a LOT of underage ones.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jan 13, 2019 18:27:28 GMT -5
All I know is "Ric Flair Drip" needs to be the name for antibiotic resistant super chlamydia.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 13, 2019 18:30:13 GMT -5
I guess we should also qualify them not being affected in so far as they've had Sable, Nicole Bass, and more sue them alleging sexual harassment, and then there's the whole Garvin thing that was one of the first major scandals they had as a company. So, claims against them aren't non-existent or anything. Also, the DeMott problems would qualify.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 13, 2019 21:46:13 GMT -5
For a few reasons I think wrestling was largely ignored. 1. It's still seen as carny. Despite the fact that we love it, no one in Hollywood or mass media really cares about the WWE, Vince, or any wrestler. 2. Wrestlers in general have a different kind of personality. Look at all the crazy insane stuff that's happened and how no one ever seemed to press charges or go to the police. They have a weird code of policing themselves. 3. Everyone knows the wrestling business is a little shady, so I think there's less sympathy for someone who speaks out. Certainly not right but I think it's true. 4. Wrestling fans are the ones who would push it to keep it in the media and by and large we don't want our heroes to be torn down. Look at the reception Hogan got on his return last week. Not to mention I would guess not as many fans of wrestling that are liberal and this was a more liberal movement, that was looked down on by others. 5. Kind of morbidly, not a lot of big name wrestlers from the 80's or even 90's are still alive. What's the point of accusing someone who's no longer with us and can't be brought to justice? There's Hogan and Flair, but Hogan doesn't seem to have much dirt in that area and Flair's is so well known that it's not a surprise. Other than that everyone else is dead. The other big stars, Warrior, Savage, Andre, Piper, Dusty, etc. are all gone. The new generation seem much more interested in the gym, video games, and Youtube channels so they don't seem like prime candidates as offenders.
Once the Vince stuff faded out of media attention the spotlight on wrestling was done.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jan 13, 2019 23:14:20 GMT -5
The notion that there weren't many women wrestlers outside of Moolah's crowd and the GLOW is a myth. There were literally dozens and dozens of others out there any given year of that time period that had nothing to do with either Moolah or GLOW. There was the group that included Misty Blue Simmes, Linda Dallas, Kat LeRoux and several others. Susan Sexton, Madusa Micelli, etc. [/quote] Where were they wrestling during the 1980s? Most were either working in Japan (from whence very little information came out), or working one-off "special attraction" matches for smaller promotions that weren't getting regular coverage in the Apter mags. Please understand: the only times I'd even seen the names of most of those wrestlers during that timeframe were in the women's rankings in those magazines. In WWE and NWA during the 1980s on TV, women's wrestling was rare af and only came in drips and drabs until the Attitude Era. Well, I'm stumped myself on this one, though I would imagine that the Very Clear Understanding came about in part as a result of the woman falling under either 1)(see just about every other valet ever) or 2)(Sunshine was Jimmy Garvin's cousin). Miss Elizabeth had originally been brought into ICW as a TV announcer for Angelo Poffo's ICW outfit _before_ she'd met Randy; but whether the VCU was put into place because Randy had intentions towards her will probably never be known. Some have accused me of that, but Aunt Irma's monthly visits and the 11-pound creature they pulled out of my uterus 14 years ago, and who now kvetches about Aunt Irma's visits and that tickets to _Thank You for Being a Friend_ have sold out, might be evidence to the contrary. . You will notice that I deliberately didn't include "ring rats" in what I've said. There are two reasons for this. First, if we even believe Jim Cornette's stories about the extent of the action the boys saw, the implication there was that the vast majority of those encounters were mutually consensual. If you were to ask most of the women who did those sorts of things back in the day, most would tell you that they knew what they were doing and that they knew the risks and took them anyway. A corollary to this was that many of these same women would also do the same whenever a music artist or band came into town, or a major-league sports team or the like. The second, sadly, is that whatever "ill behaviour" (by which I mean abuse, exploitation or sexual assault/rape/molestation) was suffered during those years was at the hands of either those no longer around to face the music directly, was paid for with oodles and oodles of hush money, and/or was suffered in the context of other criminality (prostitution/human trafficking) in which the victim had little control and a huge risk of social stigma and victim-blaming. We're talking 30 years ago, before the Anita Hill testimony at the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings, and the enactment of various laws protecting sexual assault victims during the legal process. We may yet be surprised by an incoming swarm allegations and accusations from that time period, but while we can't pin down numbers of incidents involving "ring rats" the way we can with contracted talent and/or employees, we may never know in terms of proportions or percentages the extent to which fans/followers were victimized. One is tempted to think that the availability of consensual sex would deter most wrestlers from resorting to ill behaviour, I'll agree that the probability of it occurring at all is still closer to one than zero.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jan 14, 2019 0:19:21 GMT -5
Where were they wrestling during the 1980s? Most were either working in Japan (from whence very little information came out), or working one-off "special attraction" matches for smaller promotions that weren't getting regular coverage in the Apter mags. They were wrestling everywhere. There's no denying they didn't get much TV time and absolutely used as special attractions that were never on full rosters and used for short-term angles, but they were there. Lady Maxine, Luna (Vachon) and The Lock, Sherri Martel, Black Venus, Baby Doll/Andrea the Giant, pre-GLOW Queen Kong. Pre-WWF Sapphire. Tons and tons? Nah. But they were out there. My apologies, I tend to call everyone on here that at some point in these sort of conversations. I'll refrain in the future. "Mutually consensual" doesn't count for 15 and 16-year olds, and that was not a rarity in the business during those years.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jan 14, 2019 2:09:46 GMT -5
Well the policies changed a lot in the years following the Benoit fiasco like instituting a zero tolerance for domestic abuse and with sexual assaults or rapes.
Also the wwe scandals happened in different times unfortunately were public opinion was different. It’s sad that their f***ing owner was accused by two separate women of sexual and he just brushed them off. Let’s not forget the plane ride from hell and Flair’s creepy behavior.
Back in the day unfortunately, the promoters pressured the babyfaces to keep the female fans happy because if women packed the shows, the men would follow them. Sadly there were underage girls involved.
There were even rumors of the promoters covering it up what happened with the help of the police and in some cases the girls’ parents.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 14, 2019 2:21:51 GMT -5
Honestly the policy updates of recent year probably helps.
Reports of abuse get taken seriously and people from Cruiserweights to Legends like Jerry Lawler have been suspended due to them.
As for some of the older stuff?
1.It's not as well known.
Weinstein and Spacey has been rumored or considered an open secret for years, and people have been trying to get Cosby tried/convicted for decades. We still have people occasionally asking what Moolah did on this board (less so since hte Mania hubbub but go back and look at some of the posts there people were asking why everyone was angry at the WWE over it)
2. a lot/most of the people involved are dead,
it's harder to get people to care about this when the person has been dead for decades.
3. Wrestling is considered Niche/trashy by the media.
as mainstream as it may or may not be (and again at this point there really isn't a mainstream so Wrestling is as mainstream as anything else). Wrestling will always be treated like Carny trash by the media so unless there's some major event like Benoit, they aren't going to dig for stuff there.
I mean... not to mention things like not all of the people involved with the main #METOO stuff have exactly been punished. I mean... look at the news we just had in off topic.
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Post by tekkenguy on Jan 14, 2019 5:50:24 GMT -5
For a few reasons I think wrestling was largely ignored. 1. It's still seen as carny. Despite the fact that we love it, no one in Hollywood or mass media really cares about the WWE, Vince, or any wrestler. 2. Wrestlers in general have a different kind of personality. Look at all the crazy insane stuff that's happened and how no one ever seemed to press charges or go to the police. They have a weird code of policing themselves. 3. Everyone knows the wrestling business is a little shady, so I think there's less sympathy for someone who speaks out. Certainly not right but I think it's true. 4. Wrestling fans are the ones who would push it to keep it in the media and by and large we don't want our heroes to be torn down. Look at the reception Hogan got on his return last week. Not to mention I would guess not as many fans of wrestling that are liberal and this was a more liberal movement, that was looked down on by others. 5. Kind of morbidly, not a lot of big name wrestlers from the 80's or even 90's are still alive. What's the point of accusing someone who's no longer with us and can't be brought to justice? There's Hogan and Flair, but Hogan doesn't seem to have much dirt in that area and Flair's is so well known that it's not a surprise. Other than that everyone else is dead. The other big stars, Warrior, Savage, Andre, Piper, Dusty, etc. are all gone. The new generation seem much more interested in the gym, video games, and Youtube channels so they don't seem like prime candidates as offenders. Once the Vince stuff faded out of media attention the spotlight on wrestling was done. 1. I think WWE is a pretty mainstream. They have the second most subscribed channel on YouTube after PewDiePie. 2. I’m honestly not sure this really counts anymore. Nowadays I think wrestlers are increasingly just their real selves. They behave like normal people and talk like normal people. 3. Yes it’s shady, but then again, so is Hollywood, the NFL, and of course government. Where has the #MeToo movement hit that isn’t shady? 4. Wrestling fans are a lot more liberal than most people think. They resemble your Star Wars fans rather than NASCAR fans. 5. Jimmy Savile was dead when his crimes were revealed and now he’s a pariah. Also, the social media savvy generation doesn’t reduce that people could be perpetrators.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jan 14, 2019 5:54:21 GMT -5
because it's wrestling and nobody outside the fanbase cares enough to read about it.
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Post by honsou on Jan 14, 2019 6:37:47 GMT -5
A lot of great answers here but I think another big part of it is that many of the worst possible offenders are either dead or outside of WWE right now
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Post by benstudd on Jan 14, 2019 6:42:03 GMT -5
I think it's because Hollywood is just one another level as far as manipulating people and abuse of power. It's a systematic culture of using people as meat for sex and I think the majority of the cases generate from the executives themselves who wants this and this favor and they are the ones pulling the strings and allowing this sick thing to continue. In the WWE it's just Vince and the boys espeically in the 80s and 90s did not need to abuse or using power to get women(or men).
I would think wrestling in the heydays of rats was similar to what I lived through when I was building roller-coaster rides for a carnaval. We would go from town to town and we were far from celebrities but especially in these small towns that don't have much, girls would "chase" us and it was really not a problem getting beautiful women. On the level that I could never imagine getting today. We would arrive in the towns with the companies' jackets and we were treated like rock stars and it was easy. Wrestling stars in the territory days or in the 80s/90s were that + 10. They probably did not have to do anything to get girls. They did not need to have manipulations and stuff like that.
And I think the biggest and main issues were probably when the boys would get high and violent.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 14, 2019 7:38:33 GMT -5
For a few reasons I think wrestling was largely ignored. 1. It's still seen as carny. Despite the fact that we love it, no one in Hollywood or mass media really cares about the WWE, Vince, or any wrestler. 2. Wrestlers in general have a different kind of personality. Look at all the crazy insane stuff that's happened and how no one ever seemed to press charges or go to the police. They have a weird code of policing themselves. 3. Everyone knows the wrestling business is a little shady, so I think there's less sympathy for someone who speaks out. Certainly not right but I think it's true. 4. Wrestling fans are the ones who would push it to keep it in the media and by and large we don't want our heroes to be torn down. Look at the reception Hogan got on his return last week. Not to mention I would guess not as many fans of wrestling that are liberal and this was a more liberal movement, that was looked down on by others. 5. Kind of morbidly, not a lot of big name wrestlers from the 80's or even 90's are still alive. What's the point of accusing someone who's no longer with us and can't be brought to justice? There's Hogan and Flair, but Hogan doesn't seem to have much dirt in that area and Flair's is so well known that it's not a surprise. Other than that everyone else is dead. The other big stars, Warrior, Savage, Andre, Piper, Dusty, etc. are all gone. The new generation seem much more interested in the gym, video games, and Youtube channels so they don't seem like prime candidates as offenders. Once the Vince stuff faded out of media attention the spotlight on wrestling was done. 1. I think WWE is a pretty mainstream. They have the second most subscribed channel on YouTube after PewDiePie. 2. I’m honestly not sure this really counts anymore. Nowadays I think wrestlers are increasingly just their real selves. They behave like normal people and talk like normal people. 3. Yes it’s shady, but then again, so is Hollywood, the NFL, and of course government. Where has the #MeToo movement hit that isn’t shady? 4. Wrestling fans are a lot more liberal than most people think. They resemble your Star Wars fans rather than NASCAR fans. 5. Jimmy Savile was dead when his crimes were revealed and now he’s a pariah. Also, the social media savvy generation doesn’t reduce that people could be perpetrators. 1. I stand by my point because no one in mass media cares about whoever or whatever PewDiePie is either. 2. Agreed but I don't really think it's today's stars that are going to be the perpetrators, maybe I'm wrong though. 3. Hollywood and the NFL are on a WAY bigger stage than pro wrestling. Plus people have romanticized the image of both the NFL and Hollywood in a way that pro wrestling will never be looked at. 4. Maybe they are but the response Hulk Hogan got tells me otherwise. Perhaps nerdy in a way that they could never turn against their heroes. 5. Sure I guess dead people could be blamed but if you want to get dirt on most old time wrestlers there is ample amount of stuff to look at. A #metoo accusation isn't making most of them seem any worse than they are seen right now. I mean look at Warrior, guy was clearly bigoted but they've named an award after him and celebrate him. I'm just being honest, wrestling fans don't seem to care what someone did as long as they entertained them. We have arguments on here all the time about separating Chris Benoit the wrestler from Chris Benoit the person so that people can still watch matches. It's not a great quality but time and again wrestling fans have shown forgiveness or just outright ignorance of personal issues because they're fans of someone's wrestling character. Hogan got a standing ovation upon return, Warrior is glorified, Savage was a paranoid guy who kept his wife locked up in arenas while he worked and is remembered extremely fondly, Piper and Flair were completely crazy for years and years but we love them. Basically #metoo didn't hit wrestling because it's not some big secret that these guys have skeletons in their closet, just like it's not a big secret that very few wrestling fans seem to care. It's sad but true.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 8:08:31 GMT -5
The horrors of the wrestling world are still hidden far away from the mainstream media and those scathing segments of the millennial generation. The attitude of "oh, it's a freak show" is still a cover that McMahon & many others either actively use or thank the dark gods still cloaks them.
But over time, as the ghost of Jimmy Snuka can attest to, things will leak out......people will be ruined......lives will end....... just a matter of time, really...
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 14, 2019 8:21:15 GMT -5
The horrors of the wrestling world are still hidden far away from the mainstream media and those scathing segments of the millennial generation. The attitude of "oh, it's a freak show" is still a cover that McMahon & many others either actively use or thank the dark gods still cloaks them. But over time, as the ghost of Jimmy Snuka can attest to, things will leak out......people will be ruined......lives will end....... just a matter of time, really... Maybe. Maybe not. Gen Z doesn't really seem to care as much about getting scalps as the Millennial Generation does, and they're coming up on their teenage years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 9:41:58 GMT -5
they think it's just "par for the course" for wrestling
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jan 14, 2019 10:12:10 GMT -5
Where were they wrestling during the 1980s? Most were either working in Japan (from whence very little information came out), or working one-off "special attraction" matches for smaller promotions that weren't getting regular coverage in the Apter mags. They were wrestling everywhere. There's no denying they didn't get much TV time and absolutely used as special attractions that were never on full rosters and used for short-term angles, but they were there. Lady Maxine, Luna (Vachon) and The Lock, Sherri Martel, Black Venus, Baby Doll/Andrea the Giant, pre-GLOW Queen Kong. Pre-WWF Sapphire. Tons and tons? Nah. But they were out there. I stand corrected, then. From my own experience, though, it wasn't on TV on a regular basis locally; it wasn't included on any local cards, or on the WWF cards that came through my town; and what was presented on TV (rare as it was) lacked any of the skill or prowess attributed to the men's side. The Jumping Bomb Angels and Rockin' Robin might have opened the floodgates had Moolah's machinations not screwed over the Angels or limited Robin's field of opponents. It would take Madusa/Alundra Blayze's rise in the mid-90s to bring back the idea of women's wrestling not only as a side attraction but as potentially equal in stature and promotion to the men. It's all good - 'm only trying to bring a little levity into a fairly heavy discussion, especially since we've not been seeing eye-to-eye lately. Until 1995, the legal age of consent in GA was 14. A good number of the states in which wrestling had prominence had similarly low ages of consent during the period in question. I'm not moving goalposts here: I stand by my assertion that the vast majority of the activity involved fully adult women (even by our standards today). I'm simply pointing out that what you or I regard now as being ethically questionable now would not have been even a legal issue in most cases back then - and such things might not even make a blip when they do come out for that very reason. If you dig deeper into the underage stuff, you'll probably find the same damn few wrestlers involved. How many of them are still alive? How many are still active today, even in a managerial or backstage capacity? How many of them are in a position now to have promoters willing to pay off their victims or to cover up their crimes? Without minimizing the trauma some of these girls have suffered and may continue to suffer, the biggest barrier to a #metoo movement in pro wrestling seems to be that the garbage has already largely taken itself out. We would probably need to reach out in those old territories to those women to invite them to tell their stories: whether we'd get much cooperation from them, though, is yet another matter, sadly.
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Post by tekkenguy on Jan 14, 2019 11:46:31 GMT -5
1. I think WWE is a pretty mainstream. They have the second most subscribed channel on YouTube after PewDiePie. 2. I’m honestly not sure this really counts anymore. Nowadays I think wrestlers are increasingly just their real selves. They behave like normal people and talk like normal people. 3. Yes it’s shady, but then again, so is Hollywood, the NFL, and of course government. Where has the #MeToo movement hit that isn’t shady? 4. Wrestling fans are a lot more liberal than most people think. They resemble your Star Wars fans rather than NASCAR fans. 5. Jimmy Savile was dead when his crimes were revealed and now he’s a pariah. Also, the social media savvy generation doesn’t reduce that people could be perpetrators. 1. I stand by my point because no one in mass media cares about whoever or whatever PewDiePie is either. 2. Agreed but I don't really think it's today's stars that are going to be the perpetrators, maybe I'm wrong though. 3. Hollywood and the NFL are on a WAY bigger stage than pro wrestling. Plus people have romanticized the image of both the NFL and Hollywood in a way that pro wrestling will never be looked at. 4. Maybe they are but the response Hulk Hogan got tells me otherwise. Perhaps nerdy in a way that they could never turn against their heroes. 5. Sure I guess dead people could be blamed but if you want to get dirt on most old time wrestlers there is ample amount of stuff to look at. A #metoo accusation isn't making most of them seem any worse than they are seen right now. I mean look at Warrior, guy was clearly bigoted but they've named an award after him and celebrate him. I'm just being honest, wrestling fans don't seem to care what someone did as long as they entertained them. We have arguments on here all the time about separating Chris Benoit the wrestler from Chris Benoit the person so that people can still watch matches. It's not a great quality but time and again wrestling fans have shown forgiveness or just outright ignorance of personal issues because they're fans of someone's wrestling character. Hogan got a standing ovation upon return, Warrior is glorified, Savage was a paranoid guy who kept his wife locked up in arenas while he worked and is remembered extremely fondly, Piper and Flair were completely crazy for years and years but we love them. Basically #metoo didn't hit wrestling because it's not some big secret that these guys have skeletons in their closet, just like it's not a big secret that very few wrestling fans seem to care. It's sad but true. 1. PewDiePie is very much a household name just like WWE is. 2. We already saw Enzo and Swann go down, and Lethal and Elgin also in deep water. 3. Then what about the Larry Nassar case with gymnastics? That’s hardly something like NFL and Hollywood. 4. In Saudi Arabia? Yeah their fans have very different values than America’s. And last week people just didn’t want to boo someone who was paying tribute to his late friend. 5. Yeah, times have changed. After all, everyone thought Cosby was untouchable for decades.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jan 14, 2019 12:07:31 GMT -5
Damn, this is the first I'd heard of the allegations against Jay Lethal. It's basically the first time I've ever hard to wrestle with my feelings about accusations against someone I am actually a fan of at all.
I mean... Cosby was a case where by the time I heard of it the evidence was so great I didn't have to really wrestle with it, I was just done with him. Aziz Ansari I processed pretty easily, since while I believe the accuser in that case I didn't see Ansari's behavior as being that of an irredeemable demon. Lasseter wasn't tough because I never personified my fandom for Pixar, I felt affection for the studio not the person.
But Lethal is one of my favorite wrestlers. I tend towards believing the accuser in cases like this, but now I'm trying to process the information we have while contending with the reality that my filter is biased in favor of exonerating Lethal because I like him.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Jan 14, 2019 12:25:54 GMT -5
Wait, why does the thread title place #MeToo in the past tense? We're still in the #MeToo era. It's not like it's some movement from the distant past. There's still plenty of time for things to be revealed, if at all.
A thing I learned today: PewDiePie is a household name???
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