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Post by HMARK Center on May 21, 2020 13:22:44 GMT -5
Yeesh, that was tough to watch.
Not for nothing, but Owen's story is one of the biggest, most visible arguments for wrestlers in a promotion the size of WWE needing a union. No way in hell a wrestler should feel like they "have" to do a stunt that's so far outside their expertise, because if they say no (especially if they already said no to another angle, like Owen rejecting the Debra affair angle) they could well be shuffled down into irrelevance or out of a job ASAP. And ESPECIALLY no way in hell should a company be allowed to skimp on safety features because they decided to come up with a potentially deadly stunt on a whim, that's the kind of situation where I'd demand a union rep be present.
And yeah, the separation between Martha, who's clearly someone who was ok with wrestling but is mostly an outsider to the industry, and the way so many others, from many of the Harts, to WWE, to way too many fans view the industry and what's important and what's not is kind of mind blowing. I can fully believe that to, say, Bret or someone, Owen not getting fully honored by WWE, the company that owns the vast majority of Owen's career on film, probably hurts. But to Martha...why would she want them to profit at all from his likeness? What would it do for her family to have him put into a phony Hall of Fame? And, ultimately, this was the death of a human being: @#$% the wrestling, @#$% the video archive "legacy", this was a man who had a family, had dreams, had a life he wanted to live, and it was taken away by pure negligence.
There's just such a bigger world out there than wrestling, an infinitely bigger world than the WWE. Martha and the kids are out there paying for housing for the underprivileged, getting poor kids into school, funding medical research, supporting single moms...THAT'S the "real world", THAT'S where humanity is. Oje is going to be a human rights lawyer, Athena wants to be a journalist, a noble calling that gets shit on way, way too often...that's the real @#$%ing world, and by all accounts it's what Owen wanted for his family.
Jake Roberts has often likened the rush from performing in front of and manipulating the emotions of a crowd to drug use; I have to think it goes so far beyond that, into the family aspect, into the way the business can shape and consume your entire life. Again, I think that's the "philosophy" that someone like Bret has, as Martha said, whereas Owen was different; to Bret, your work in the wrestling industry is your legacy, it's what you've poured all your life into, it's what defines you...but Owen just wasn't wired that way. He clearly liked what he was doing, but he wanted to be home more than anything else. I'm sure plenty of other wrestlers feel the same, but to those who are in THAT deep to the industry, it's so hard to look outside the bubble.
And yeah, that Vince clip...you know, over the years I remember reading people defending Vince's angry reactions to certain reporters: "those reporters don't get the business", "they don't really know what they're asking", "Vince feels hurt by the bad stuff that's happened, too." I've, personally, never liked Vince as a person, at least as much as I know of him as a public figure, since I first saw Wrestling with Shadows (I was too young to really know what the steroid trial was all about), but man, the way a lot of very public powerful, narcissistic people talk to the media has become a much larger topic of conversation since the 1990s, and it just absolutely smacks of that "How DARE you question me, don't you see that I'M a victim, here? I'm now fully justified in belittling and insulting you (especially if you're a woman)" mentality.
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Post by James Fabiano on May 21, 2020 13:48:02 GMT -5
Just so you know, it'll be a while before I can watch this last episode. Don't need to think about wrestlers who have died in accidents, especially not this week.
See you later, then?
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
Posts: 11,445
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Post by mattperiolat on May 21, 2020 14:12:40 GMT -5
If you can honestly be mad at Martha for not wanting Owen to be in the Hall, or involved with WWE in any way, just answer me how. He's never gonna be in the Hall, in video games, have merchandise, or action figures. His family is going to make sure of that. The company killed Owen, they don't want anything to do with Vince. I owe Martha Hart an apology. I was very tough on her because I wanted Owen in the Hall, recognized, remembered, honored for what he did for the business. Martha trumps me though because she wants Owen back. The business denied her her husband and her children a father. So, humbly, profoundly, I apologize. I was selfish, too damn selfish to use Owen’s words, in wanting Owen to be a legend when she just wants a man taken too soon.
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
Posts: 11,445
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Post by mattperiolat on May 21, 2020 14:15:20 GMT -5
"I don't like your tone." F*** You, McMahon. Answer her question, you goddamn murderer. That was going through my head when I saw that clip. I feel for Martha. For Oje. For Athena. “I don’t like your sarcasm.” Brilliant response. Can’t say more because of Vince’s friends in high places, but seems familiar that attitude towards women.
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
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Post by Steveweiser on May 21, 2020 14:29:05 GMT -5
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,794
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Post by hassanchop on May 21, 2020 14:36:17 GMT -5
Should've interviewed Ahmed Johnson for those:
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on May 21, 2020 14:59:44 GMT -5
(WOR) Details about the infighting within the Hart family surrounding the Wrongful Death Case, and the way in which Ellie Neidhart played a pivotol role in ensuring that WWE avoided a jury trial and reached a settlement instead. Martha, Stu and Helen Hart were the plaintiffs against WWE.
With Stu and Helen, it was all about the kids. Bret was 100% with Martha. Keith was pretty much with Martha. Ross tried to be neutral. Diana, because of Davey, and Ellie, because of Jim Neidhart, sided with WWE and they were on Vince’s side.
As I remember, Martha’s lawyers tried to bring the family together by trying to do a thing where they would share in the verdict (they signed an agreement to this effect I guess). This effort was to help poor Stu and Helen, who were old at this point, and even though they were plaintiffs in the case, they didn’t like the fighting in the family and wanted the case to go away.
From the WWE side, you try to seize on that and you try to get them to settle. For a lower figure. Vince and Linda tried to play on the idea that “we are all friends, it was an accident, we’re sorry.” They knew at this point that they would pay a significant amount of money, but it was always a question of how much.
Many of the family wanted to settle with Vince and not to go against Vince. And then Vince hired Davey and Neidhart at this time. Which made things worse. Because now you have people working for Vince.
Ellie, Neidhart’s wife and Natalya’s mother, faxed the aforementioned agreement to Vince, which is probably illegal for her to do, and this nearly destroyed the case and would have ensured Martha got nothing. This action delayed the court date, and it forced a settlement rather than a court case.
They ended up settling for 18 million. I believe, if they had gone before a jury, because of negligence, the settlement would have been closer to 40 million.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 21, 2020 15:00:28 GMT -5
I low-key love how seemingly every single person who worked in pro wrestling during that era has a Stu Hart impression.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,144
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 21, 2020 15:48:57 GMT -5
I low-key love how seemingly every single person who worked in pro wrestling during that era as a Stu Hart impression. I don't know why, but I can't help but feel a little uncomfortable with Stu Hart impressions. And I might be the LAST person on this board you (generic you)'d think would feel that way.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 21, 2020 16:27:41 GMT -5
(WOR) Details about the infighting within the Hart family surrounding the Wrongful Death Case, and the way in which Ellie Neidhart played a pivotol role in ensuring that WWE avoided a jury trial and reached a settlement instead. Martha, Stu and Helen Hart were the plaintiffs against WWE. With Stu and Helen, it was all about the kids. Bret was 100% with Martha. Keith was pretty much with Martha. Ross tried to be neutral. Diana, because of Davey, and Ellie, because of Jim Neidhart, sided with WWE and they were on Vince’s side. As I remember, Martha’s lawyers tried to bring the family together by trying to do a thing where they would share in the verdict (they signed an agreement to this effect I guess). This effort was to help poor Stu and Helen, who were old at this point, and even though they were plaintiffs in the case, they didn’t like the fighting in the family and wanted the case to go away. From the WWE side, you try to seize on that and you try to get them to settle. For a lower figure. Vince and Linda tried to play on the idea that “we are all friends, it was an accident, we’re sorry.” They knew at this point that they would pay a significant amount of money, but it was always a question of how much. Many of the family wanted to settle with Vince and not to go against Vince. And then Vince hired Davey and Neidhart at this time. Which made things worse. Because now you have people working for Vince. Ellie, Neidhart’s wife and Natalya’s mother, faxed the aforementioned agreement to Vince, which is probably illegal for her to do, and this nearly destroyed the case and would have ensured Martha got nothing. This action delayed the court date, and it forced a settlement rather than a court case. They ended up settling for 18 million. I believe, if they had gone before a jury, because of negligence, the settlement would have been closer to 40 million. That signed agreement ended up hurting the Hart family case, along with a hold-harm regarding the company that manufactured the clasp from the stunt; Ellie Hart sending those documents to WWF opened the door to WWF's lawyers being able to argue they were being unfairly singled out for liability, and the signed agreement on the money involved could be spun as potential witness coaching, since the implication was "give testimony consistent with our story, and you'll get money". WWF, now WWE, was then able to sue the clasp manufacturer a few years later, discovered that there had been other deaths associated with the clasp and that no recalls or anything had been issued, and wound up getting $9 million in a settlement...effectively cutting the cost of settling with the Harts in half. What none of that changes was the WWE's work to divide the Hart family (sadly a far too easy thing to accomplish) via hiring Davey Boy and Anvil before the settlement; the signed agreement, as mentioned above, seemed to be an attempt to unify the family through all the disagreements on those things, but again, on paper it could be argued in court to come too close to bribing witnesses, which instantly hurts the potential financial numbers involved in any judgment. There really was not much in the way of justice done, in the end. Note: the stuff that hurt the case wasn't some fault of Martha's, or Bret's, etc., but likely due to overzealous trial lawyers who heard "We want to go after WWF" and took it too literally. EDIT: Listening to Martha's WOR appearance, she says that initially the clasp manufacturer was included in the lawsuit, as were the companies involved in manufacturing the harness and the ropes used in the stunt, which is pretty standard operating procedure in a case like this. However, in the course of investigation Martha's legal team felt that the manufacturers were not liable because their products had worked as intended; they had simply been used incorrectly. In the case of the small clasp from the episode, she says it was made for sailboats and only sold to stunt productions for the purposes of stunts where a person is dragged behind a horse or car or something like that. Ergo, the hold-harm was issued, but then wound up being used against them when WWF's legal team got the documents from Ellie.
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Post by jason1980s on May 21, 2020 17:40:35 GMT -5
When did WWF hire during the trial? I don't remember him being on WWF from December 1997 to December 2007 when he was on the Raw battle royal. Was he hired and never used or was this just Meltzer's fibbing? Just wondering. Still on Martha's side.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 21, 2020 17:46:51 GMT -5
When did WWF hire during the trial? I don't remember him being on WWF from December 1997 to December 2007 when he was on the Raw battle royal. Was he hired and never used or was this just Meltzer's fibbing? Just wondering. Still on Martha's side. I don't have anything handy, but apparently there's an Observer report of Anvil being hired in '99 in a backstage capacity. He also did some work in WWE at some point as a talent scout; that might have begun in '99 or a few years later, since that definitely comes up in Bret's book and in other reports of him being hired.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,948
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2020 18:04:15 GMT -5
I forgot to getting to the part in Darkside of the Podcast, the idea they originally crapped out was to have Max Mini strapped to Owen. If you need a slight silver of a bright side, it’s that that didn’t happen.
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 21, 2020 18:07:59 GMT -5
Bryan Alvarez kinda makes a point about how the quick-release was the opposite of a good parody of Sting. And he's right. The absolute kicker is...they only did Blazer-from-the-rafters twice (Over the Edge, and Survivor Series half a year before that) and the first time around, that's exactly what they did. He came down, got tangled up in his harness, couldn't get it off and that allowed Steve Blackman to just wail on him until Blazer yelled at the guys above to lift him back up.
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Post by jason1980s on May 21, 2020 20:02:46 GMT -5
I've watched most of the season 2 episodes and based on what I see/hear, I really hope Chris Jericho or Jim Ross never go to work for WWE again. I know now they are with AEW but who knows what happens in a few years but both these guys obviously know first hand how much hurt has been caused to some people by WWF/WWE. You can see or hear it in them.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on May 21, 2020 20:42:44 GMT -5
I low-key love how seemingly every single person who worked in pro wrestling during that era has a Stu Hart impression. Hell, even I’ve sat around working on my Stu impression. Also, I would pay good money for a 2 hour doc or podcast that’s just stories of Owen ribs.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 21, 2020 20:51:49 GMT -5
I have like two problems with this show overall One they are really sloppy with some of their reporting at times... and it's usually stuff that could be answered with like a quick google search... like the Legion of Doom being a stable in Georgia that the Road Warriors were a part of before taking the name in the WWF (and well the it's a SUPERFRIENDS reference and not a He-man but... still.) Getting little things wrong like that make me wonder how well they actually did reporting on the bigger issues. the other problem I have is they seem to try to ram Vince is an asshole! into every episode... regardless if has any bearing on the actual story being told... and I mean yeah Vince is a dick but bringing him up in random places reduces some of the impact of stuff when he actually does shitty stuff like well Owen... (I did not watch the episode I don't think I can) It's probably hard to correct the talent when they are speaking even if they are wrong. Paul Ellering seemed so excited to get the He Man reference that whoever was doing the show might have felt bad about correcting him. Some of the timelines and references do seem a bit off sometimes but otherwise I've enjoyed the shows I've seen. One example is the UWF episode where it's basically insinuated there is no other company but WWF and whoever is willing to come along and oppose them (UWF). No mention of WCW which was just as big IMO. Another is the Andre segment in the UWF show. I'm guessing the timing was right (Herb brought in Andre, Vince called him back around Rumble time) but they show footage of Andre in mid 1991 with Jimmy Hart. The more accurate portrayal would have been a Rumble segment where Mean Gene announces Andre the show but tiny things really don't get in the way of the overall story. Edit: Blckjack Brawl happened a year and months after WrestleMania 9 yet the show made it seem like Herb saw WrestleMania 9 and immediately tried to run a Vegas show. My point was more... getting small things like that wrong... make it easier for people to think they got BIGGER things wrong or have people try and deflect with can you really trust them when they talk about how they came up with the Legion of Doom name when they went to the WWF when they were already the Legion of Doom in Georgia, with Jake and the Spoiler?
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,948
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2020 22:49:24 GMT -5
It's probably hard to correct the talent when they are speaking even if they are wrong. Paul Ellering seemed so excited to get the He Man reference that whoever was doing the show might have felt bad about correcting him. Some of the timelines and references do seem a bit off sometimes but otherwise I've enjoyed the shows I've seen. One example is the UWF episode where it's basically insinuated there is no other company but WWF and whoever is willing to come along and oppose them (UWF). No mention of WCW which was just as big IMO. Another is the Andre segment in the UWF show. I'm guessing the timing was right (Herb brought in Andre, Vince called him back around Rumble time) but they show footage of Andre in mid 1991 with Jimmy Hart. The more accurate portrayal would have been a Rumble segment where Mean Gene announces Andre the show but tiny things really don't get in the way of the overall story. Edit: Blckjack Brawl happened a year and months after WrestleMania 9 yet the show made it seem like Herb saw WrestleMania 9 and immediately tried to run a Vegas show. My point was more... getting small things like that wrong... make it easier for people to think they got BIGGER things wrong or have people try and deflect with can you really trust them when they talk about how they came up with the Legion of Doom name when they went to the WWF when they were already the Legion of Doom in Georgia, with Jake and the Spoiler? You’re exactly right. The mainstream always seems to get broad strokes right about wrestling but the banal minutia is always wrong. A non-fan would never notice but wrestling fans always do.
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Post by Prince Petty on May 22, 2020 7:24:34 GMT -5
I'm just catching up on a couple of episodes I missed.
In the David Schultz episode, there was one line that made me laugh out loud - "In 2019, Hulk Hogan came out with a version of events that no one had heard." Well. Of course he did.
I thought both Schultz and Mansfield came off pretty well in this. Schultz as a legit tough guy who probably did more to further the reputation of wrestlers by becoming a bounty hunter than either he or Hogan did by beating up reporters. And Mansfield was right about almost everything he said - promoters did treat wrestlers like garbage while expecting total loyalty. There's a fair amount of whitewashing and self-aggrandising from both, but at least they seem like guys who haven't lived their whole lives bitter about what wrestling did to them.
Stossel, in contrast, came off very badly. Whining about how he "couldn't be a proper father" because his ears hurt, bragging about being on a crusade to "stop people being fooled" by pro wrestling. He handled that entire situation so badly, and maybe it was because he was scared of Schultz or maybe he had some notion that this huge, intimidating, clearly angry man was somehow a complete fake who wouldn't hurt a fly, I don't know.
He stumbled onto a good story in there, with Mansfield - 'you know wrestlers put on a show. Some of you know it's all fake. But did you know how these ruthless promoters exploit the wrestlers? How these guys hurt themselves for paltry payouts?' Seems like he went down the cheap, sensationalist route instead.
It also seems clear that Vince did all he could to engineer a situation where one of the boys would do something like that - first he sends Sheik to talk to Stossel, then Schultz? I fully believe he told Schultz to do whatever it took to protect the business.
Maybe Schultz wouldn't have been a good fit for the Rock 'n' Wrestling era, but that guy was money. You could see him being a great heel in any era, using different facets of the 'crazy, violent hillbilly' persona.
Also, every story I've ever heard that involves Jay Strongbow makes me think he was the biggest stooge ever.
Herb Abrams just seems like a conman who ended up conning himself, and a wrestling fan who saw a chance to be a star then wouldn't take no for an answer.
Sadly, it's not surprising that there were a whole bunch of guys who should have known better, who were willing to go along with him. It's like Paul Heyman, but without the wrestling mind or the success.
There was nothing really compelling about this one. No 'rise and fall' narrative, no redemption, not even any tragedy. Just a crazy idiot who blew all his money and died in a ridiculous way. I don't really have any interest in these 'human car crash' stories.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on May 22, 2020 8:13:15 GMT -5
It's probably hard to correct the talent when they are speaking even if they are wrong. Paul Ellering seemed so excited to get the He Man reference that whoever was doing the show might have felt bad about correcting him. Some of the timelines and references do seem a bit off sometimes but otherwise I've enjoyed the shows I've seen. One example is the UWF episode where it's basically insinuated there is no other company but WWF and whoever is willing to come along and oppose them (UWF). No mention of WCW which was just as big IMO. Another is the Andre segment in the UWF show. I'm guessing the timing was right (Herb brought in Andre, Vince called him back around Rumble time) but they show footage of Andre in mid 1991 with Jimmy Hart. The more accurate portrayal would have been a Rumble segment where Mean Gene announces Andre the show but tiny things really don't get in the way of the overall story. Edit: Blckjack Brawl happened a year and months after WrestleMania 9 yet the show made it seem like Herb saw WrestleMania 9 and immediately tried to run a Vegas show. My point was more... getting small things like that wrong... make it easier for people to think they got BIGGER things wrong or have people try and deflect with can you really trust them when they talk about how they came up with the Legion of Doom name when they went to the WWF when they were already the Legion of Doom in Georgia, with Jake and the Spoiler? I do question their quality of research prior to interviewing people. I listen to Dark Side of the Podcast, and they constantly mention stuff they had no idea about that was pretty public knowledge. If you put in an evening of proper research, they’d have probably known that. I think they rely entirely too much on the interviews without enough of their own research. For example, they said they didn’t read Martha’s book until they were already talking to her but you’d think you’d want that and any WON discussing the lawsuit under your belt before even making contact with guests for the doc.
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