BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 17,033
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Post by BRV on Jul 21, 2019 13:24:28 GMT -5
There were two very interesting points that I took away from that interview:
1. "They have a very aging demographic. No audience is getting older faster than the professional wrestling audience." Considering the way the product has been marketed for the better part of the past decade - a largely safe, TV-PG show that deviated away from the sex and violence fueled Attitude Era and early Ruthless Aggression Era - it's fascinating that WWE is having a hard time catching on with the 18-to-34 market. You'd figure that the kids they targeted back in the early 2010s would be teenagers or young adults right now, but they must not have captured that audience and are now paying the price for it. According to various articles published on line, reports have shown that the median age for pro wrestling fans is 54. And that's a MASSIVE problem that is currently plaguing other sports like baseball.
2. "the No. 1 thing that a lot of fans are complaining about - that and the fact that Vince McMahon still has so much power. It's not too different from what the New York Knicks are going through with James Dolan." That's a very apt comparison because it feels like online all anyone does is complain about Vince McMahon. If there's a good episode of Raw, Paul Heyman gets credit or the writers get credit or the wrestlers get the credit. But if there's a bad Raw, 100 percent of the blame falls entirely on McMahon's shoulders. And that's the price you pay for being the boss. But I also wonder if WWE fans are going to wish for the devil they knew rather than they devil they didn't after Vince goes away, because everything in WWE for the past 30-plus years has been through the lens of Vince McMahon.
Also, there's the simple fact that WWE's stock is doing well, so there's really no reason financially to gild the lily. They've got a $1 billion deal from Fox, a $750 million deal with USA, and the stock price has jumped from 21.21 two years ago to 70.23 right now, although that's down considerably from its high in the 90s last September and this past April.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,014
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Post by nate5054 on Jul 21, 2019 13:52:44 GMT -5
Does that make TNA Friendster or Google Plus in this analogy? TNA is two tin cans with a string between them.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 21, 2019 13:55:58 GMT -5
I will never get behind the whole scripted promo complaint. Scripted promos, just like ad-libbed ones, can be good or bad. If a writer has a handle on who a character is, then scripted promos are great. If a wrestler is a good actor who can think on his feet, then unscripted promos are great.
I keep seeing people just assuming that, if they liked a promo, the wrestler must have written it themselves, and if they didn't like a promo, it must have been scripted by someone else. But like, Bray Wyatt didn't write every word of the Firefly Funhouse sketches himself. The problem isn't scripted promos, the problem is just bad writing. Bad writing is bad writing, whether it's written beforehand or just made up on the spot.
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Post by avenger on Jul 21, 2019 14:05:20 GMT -5
You have to wonder what the McMahons think of this kind of coverage from legit news outlets. This has now gone way beyond internet fans grumbling and the occasional crowd hijacking in a "smart" city. This is the WWE's creative machine being outed as a suckfest by people in the larger TV and entertainment industries, with Vince himself identified as one of the main obstacles to his own company's success. You can't just chest-puff and keep doing things the same way at this point, especially if you're a publicly traded company. Or maybe, if you're Vince, you're so arrogant that you believe you can do exactly that. I don't think WWE is quite into MySpace territory where they're beyond turning things around. I mean, look at the WWF in 1994. It was so uncool it hurt. Three years later, they ditched most of the cartoon crap and caught fire. But it's because they realized their survival was at stake against WCW and knew they needed to change. Here, I think they don't realize it yet because they're not financially in the same dire straits. But how soon until that noose tightens? It seems unavoidable unless Vince backs off the overscripting and starts giving fans more of what they want, or unless the rest of the family can muscle him out somehow. When a lie is told so often, eventually it becomes the truth. Reality is, that the WWF weren't in financial trouble during the Monday Night Wars. The PPV revenue was down. The ratings weren't as good as WCWs, but were still no worse than they had been in the early days of Raw. I mean, the show went from being a one hour show to a two hour show in February 1997 - if the ratings were so bad, why would any TV Network double the size of the show? The USA Network took the risk, as they realised that WCW Monday Nitro wasn't taking viewers away from Monday Right Raw - more people were tuning into wrestling, because wrestling now had an unpredictability factor. However, the WWF's biggest revenue source at the time was the live events, and attendances and merchandise were up. They weren't in the levels of the Hogan era, but they were the highest they'd been since the Xahorian scandal broke. Even then, McMahon had used the Zahorian scandal to his advantage - the names at the top of the card, didn't have the pull that the old names had, and the top talent were being paid a hell of a lot less, not to mention that the percentage of the gate for the top draws had slowly disappeared, because the main event talent were no longer the draws, the WWF brand was. Except Vince insists on writing everyone's HTML code for their page. It's broken in several places, and includes several awful fonts in bad colours that don't contrast to the background, and autoplaying Downstait at maximum volume. Also parts of the code are just him yelling at the computer to do the things he wants in all caps? And this is the bit where everyone conveniently forgets how good 205 Live was, when Vince was booking it. Vince without the pressure of sponsors and TV networks produces surprisingly good TV. It's almost like he's had 35 years of running a wrestling company, and actually knows his shit.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jul 21, 2019 14:14:41 GMT -5
I will never get behind the whole scripted promo complaint. Scripted promos, just like ad-libbed ones, can be good or bad. If a writer has a handle on who a character is, then scripted promos are great. If a wrestler is a good actor who can think on his feet, then unscripted promos are great. I keep seeing people just assuming that, if they liked a promo, the wrestler must have written it themselves, and if they didn't like a promo, it must have been scripted by someone else. But like, Bray Wyatt didn't write every word of the Firefly Funhouse sketches himself. The problem isn't scripted promos, the problem is just bad writing. Bad writing is bad writing, whether it's written beforehand or just made up on the spot. The issue with the scripting isn't is being good or bad, in my opinion,it's the sameness of everyone and everything, because as much as they have 26 writers, it's almost always one voice, and that is Vince McMahon. Part of the appeal of pro wrestling is that it was a variety of different characters, Hulk Hogan didn't have the same voice as Randy Savage or as Jake Roberts or as Bobby Heenan. Now,it's all the same kind of shit, with 95% of the promos being easily traced to what Vince likes.
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Post by eJm on Jul 21, 2019 15:48:29 GMT -5
And this is the bit where everyone conveniently forgets how good 205 Live was, when Vince was booking it. Vince without the pressure of sponsors and TV networks produces surprisingly good TV. It's almost like he's had 35 years of running a wrestling company, and actually knows his shit. Here’s the problem with all that, though; nobody gave a shit. Yes, 205 Live was more known as an entity back then but the only exposure the mainstream non Network audience got was the purple ropes and mat and the 5 minute matches that were just two dudes doing things. And yes, Enzo did do more as time went on and it did headline RAWs but again, none of that did anything because nobody was watching 205 Live. And that’s not even beginning to get into Vince setting out to make little men look weak and would be battered by every guy above 6”0 when the chance came along for the past 30 years. So to suddenly expect your audience to give a crap about people below 6”0 because you make it it’s own show is ridiculous. My point is this; why is he NOT doing it now? Because, again, nobody gave a shit.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 21, 2019 16:29:05 GMT -5
You have to wonder what the McMahons think of this kind of coverage from legit news outlets. This has now gone way beyond internet fans grumbling and the occasional crowd hijacking in a "smart" city. This is the WWE's creative machine being outed as a suckfest by people in the larger TV and entertainment industries, with Vince himself identified as one of the main obstacles to his own company's success. You can't just chest-puff and keep doing things the same way at this point, especially if you're a publicly traded company. Or maybe, if you're Vince, you're so arrogant that you believe you can do exactly that. I don't think WWE is quite into MySpace territory where they're beyond turning things around. I mean, look at the WWF in 1994. It was so uncool it hurt. Three years later, they ditched most of the cartoon crap and caught fire. But it's because they realized their survival was at stake against WCW and knew they needed to change. Here, I think they don't realize it yet because they're not financially in the same dire straits. But how soon until that noose tightens? It seems unavoidable unless Vince backs off the overscripting and starts giving fans more of what they want, or unless the rest of the family can muscle him out somehow. When a lie is told so often, eventually it becomes the truth. Reality is, that the WWF weren't in financial trouble during the Monday Night Wars. The PPV revenue was down. The ratings weren't as good as WCWs, but were still no worse than they had been in the early days of Raw. I mean, the show went from being a one hour show to a two hour show in February 1997 - if the ratings were so bad, why would any TV Network double the size of the show? The USA Network took the risk, as they realised that WCW Monday Nitro wasn't taking viewers away from Monday Right Raw - more people were tuning into wrestling, because wrestling now had an unpredictability factor. If Hulk Hogan never turns heel, then the WWE's attitude era never becomes a phenomenon, period. The problem is, if the WWE wants to go young, they've got to admit their fans are nerds, and they especially have to work to draw in nerdy young women. And it's not just Vince resisting that.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,255
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 21, 2019 16:32:38 GMT -5
The thing is, it's not even just Vince being out-of-touch with the pop-culture zeitgeist, it's also him being completely out-of-touch with the social-culture zeitgeist, and that's something he's never going to budge on.
He can't draw in a younger audience without doing that (look how much of a premium that AEW is putting on "inclusivity", and using/promoting the sorts of talents that Vince would have no idea how to handle in a way that isn't completely embarrassing for all involved (Sonny Kiss, Nyla Rose, Dustin Thomas, you could even throw Marko Stunt in the pile of "talent Vince wouldn't know how to use respectfully").
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,635
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Post by cjh on Jul 21, 2019 16:33:31 GMT -5
You have to wonder what the McMahons think of this kind of coverage from legit news outlets. This has now gone way beyond internet fans grumbling and the occasional crowd hijacking in a "smart" city. This is the WWE's creative machine being outed as a suckfest by people in the larger TV and entertainment industries, with Vince himself identified as one of the main obstacles to his own company's success. You can't just chest-puff and keep doing things the same way at this point, especially if you're a publicly traded company. Or maybe, if you're Vince, you're so arrogant that you believe you can do exactly that. I don't think WWE is quite into MySpace territory where they're beyond turning things around. I mean, look at the WWF in 1994. It was so uncool it hurt. Three years later, they ditched most of the cartoon crap and caught fire. But it's because they realized their survival was at stake against WCW and knew they needed to change. Here, I think they don't realize it yet because they're not financially in the same dire straits. But how soon until that noose tightens? It seems unavoidable unless Vince backs off the overscripting and starts giving fans more of what they want, or unless the rest of the family can muscle him out somehow. When a lie is told so often, eventually it becomes the truth. Reality is, that the WWF weren't in financial trouble during the Monday Night Wars. The PPV revenue was down. The ratings weren't as good as WCWs, but were still no worse than they had been in the early days of Raw. I mean, the show went from being a one hour show to a two hour show in February 1997 - if the ratings were so bad, why would any TV Network double the size of the show? The USA Network took the risk, as they realised that WCW Monday Nitro wasn't taking viewers away from Monday Right Raw - more people were tuning into wrestling, because wrestling now had an unpredictability factor. However, the WWF's biggest revenue source at the time was the live events, and attendances and merchandise were up. They weren't in the levels of the Hogan era, but they were the highest they'd been since the Xahorian scandal broke. Even then, McMahon had used the Zahorian scandal to his advantage - the names at the top of the card, didn't have the pull that the old names had, and the top talent were being paid a hell of a lot less, not to mention that the percentage of the gate for the top draws had slowly disappeared, because the main event talent were no longer the draws, the WWF brand was. Except Vince insists on writing everyone's HTML code for their page. It's broken in several places, and includes several awful fonts in bad colours that don't contrast to the background, and autoplaying Downstait at maximum volume. Also parts of the code are just him yelling at the computer to do the things he wants in all caps? And this is the bit where everyone conveniently forgets how good 205 Live was, when Vince was booking it. Vince without the pressure of sponsors and TV networks produces surprisingly good TV. It's almost like he's had 35 years of running a wrestling company, and actually knows his shit. WWE wasn't doing well financially pre-1997. They were losing money and were forced cut back on costs tremendously. JJ Dillon left for WCW in September 1996 because he couldn't afford his house in CT anymore due to the pay cut he had taken. According to Dave Meltzer, USA was considering canceling Raw in late-1997, and the success of the Tyson/Austin angle is what saved them. It's mostly been forgotten, but some of Nitro's biggest wins over Raw in the ratings came in the few weeks/months before the April 1998 show where Raw won for the first time in 22 months.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,255
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 21, 2019 16:36:48 GMT -5
When a lie is told so often, eventually it becomes the truth. Reality is, that the WWF weren't in financial trouble during the Monday Night Wars. The PPV revenue was down. The ratings weren't as good as WCWs, but were still no worse than they had been in the early days of Raw. I mean, the show went from being a one hour show to a two hour show in February 1997 - if the ratings were so bad, why would any TV Network double the size of the show? The USA Network took the risk, as they realised that WCW Monday Nitro wasn't taking viewers away from Monday Right Raw - more people were tuning into wrestling, because wrestling now had an unpredictability factor. If Hulk Hogan never turns heel, then the WWE's attitude era never becomes a phenomenon, period. The problem is, if the WWE wants to go young, they've got to admit their fans are nerds, and they especially have to work to draw in nerdy young women. And it's not just Vince resisting that. And the frustrating part is that HHH seems to accept (even if it's begrudgingly) that the fanbase is fandom-nerdy. He's made it clear that he doesn't understand them, but that he's willing to at least go part-way along with it because he wants people to get over and the shows to be good. Vince is just sticking corncobs in his ears and shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, GODDAMMIT!"
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 32,038
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Post by Perd on Jul 21, 2019 16:56:03 GMT -5
If WWE is MySpace, then TNA is a WebTV chat room.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jul 21, 2019 17:01:01 GMT -5
with the ratings plunge going back 5 years ---- isn't that about the time of the never ending Lesnar super push and forced Roman push? it also didn't really help that Daniel Bryan was hurt during most of that time, and he was one of few never main event guys they didn't bury Losing CM Punk at the same time they were jerking Bryan around really hurt them way more than they'd ever admit.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 21, 2019 17:08:16 GMT -5
And this is the bit where everyone conveniently forgets how good 205 Live was, when Vince was booking it. Vince without the pressure of sponsors and TV networks produces surprisingly good TV. It's almost like he's had 35 years of running a wrestling company, and actually knows his shit. Vince was in control of 205 Live from the very start of it up until the Enzo fiasco when he reportedly lost interest. But Vince was the same one who made the cruiserweight title endless pre-show fodder, and who stuck them on Raw in the most nothing capacity. Sponsors and network execs aren't the one who've given Vince his sense of humour, his 'he big' fetish, his insane need to demand rewrites of the show even just before it goes on air, the stilted commentary arguments, the bummer booking, the bad roster management, the awkward and intrusive branding nonsense... Like come on. There's so many bad things with the product that are either long-standing Vince tropes taken to the extreme, or things they'd never ask for. Vince has had the benefit of listening to great wrestling minds for years, now he's completely unfiltered doing his own stuff and it is driving people away with ideas that leave people baffled. Vince is just not a good creative mind. He's a business guy, but he's slowly dropped voiced after voice until he stood as the only one who mattered. When a former top guy is saying outright that Vince is the problem and he's not CM Punk levels of bitter, "this period of 205 Live was pretty good" doesn't really stand as a strong counterweight.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,939
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Post by Dub H on Jul 21, 2019 17:20:46 GMT -5
And this is the bit where everyone conveniently forgets how good 205 Live was, when Vince was booking it. Vince without the pressure of sponsors and TV networks produces surprisingly good TV. It's almost like he's had 35 years of running a wrestling company, and actually knows his shit. Here’s the problem with all that, though; nobody gave a shit. Yes, 205 Live was more known as an entity back then but the only exposure the mainstream non Network audience got was the purple ropes and mat and the 5 minute matches that were just two dudes doing things. And yes, Enzo did do more as time went on and it did headline RAWs but again, none of that did anything because nobody was watching 205 Live. And that’s not even beginning to get into Vince setting out to make little men look weak and would be battered by every guy above 6”0 when the chance came along for the past 30 years. So to suddenly expect your audience to give a crap about people below 6”0 because you make it it’s own show is ridiculous. My point is this; why is he NOT doing it now? Because, again, nobody gave a shit. If I recall more people started watching 205 wheb Enzo was the main gain on it
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Post by eJm on Jul 21, 2019 17:27:47 GMT -5
Here’s the problem with all that, though; nobody gave a shit. Yes, 205 Live was more known as an entity back then but the only exposure the mainstream non Network audience got was the purple ropes and mat and the 5 minute matches that were just two dudes doing things. And yes, Enzo did do more as time went on and it did headline RAWs but again, none of that did anything because nobody was watching 205 Live. And that’s not even beginning to get into Vince setting out to make little men look weak and would be battered by every guy above 6”0 when the chance came along for the past 30 years. So to suddenly expect your audience to give a crap about people below 6”0 because you make it it’s own show is ridiculous. My point is this; why is he NOT doing it now? Because, again, nobody gave a shit. If I recall more people started watching 205 wheb Enzo was the main gain on it But only enough for the show to revolve around Enzo, not really around anyone else. And yes, people talk about the Gulak PowerPoint gimmick or whatever but again, those weren’t things that were showcased on the main roster. Just 5 minute matches or Enzo. Which went really well for them when Enzo basically destroyed the company’s trust in him probably forever.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,939
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Post by Dub H on Jul 21, 2019 17:31:28 GMT -5
If I recall more people started watching 205 wheb Enzo was the main gain on it But only enough for the show to revolve around Enzo, not really around anyone else. And yes, people talk about the Gulak PowerPoint gimmick or whatever but again, those weren’t things that were showcased on the main roster. Just 5 minute matches or Enzo. Which went really well for them when Enzo basically destroyed the company’s trust in him probably forever. Noam Dad was about to get a big face rub from Enzo,and PAC turned into a pretty big face from it( too big for 205 you vould saY). But im.not arguing about destroying or who f***ed up or got a rub. Just to point out that something did move the needle.If Enzo didnt f*** up ir probably would go up more
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 17:49:30 GMT -5
But only enough for the show to revolve around Enzo, not really around anyone else. And yes, people talk about the Gulak PowerPoint gimmick or whatever but again, those weren’t things that were showcased on the main roster. Just 5 minute matches or Enzo. Which went really well for them when Enzo basically destroyed the company’s trust in him probably forever. Noam Dad was about to get a big face rub from Enzo,and PAC turned into a pretty big face from it( too big for 205 you vould saY). But im.not arguing about destroying or who f***ed up or got a rub. Just to point out that something did move the needle.If Enzo didnt f*** up ir probably would go up more Noam Dar getting a "How do you do, fellow kids?" gimmick CONFIRMED.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Jul 21, 2019 19:10:15 GMT -5
This was an interesting interview to read, but I think it focuses far too much on the content of WWE programming as the cause of the company's ratings woes. While I wouldn't dismiss WWE programming as a cause, the creative choices WWE has made over the past several years are symptomatic of the format of their live TV shows and even the PPVs. The format of today's WWE TV programming is antithetical to how younger people consume their media. One, younger people are less likely to have a cable TV subscription, maybe even a network TV package through a service provider, because they're a significant cord cutting group. So having TV shows that air on USA and Fox is already missing the mark (and missing "the mark"). Two, younger people watching YouTube videos that are 10, 20, or 30 minutes long. They binge-watch a Netflix show, then move on to the next thing. They watch 2-3 minute videos on Twitter and even shorter videos on Instagram. A 3-hour TV show, that runs every Monday night, that has been 3 hours long for 7 years, that feeds into another 2 TV show or a 4+ hour PPV that airs on the weekend, is not conducive to how young people watch content. YouTube personalities and Instagram influencers are also of the younger demographic that WWE can't seem to reach. Perhaps there's a correlation that young people who don't watch WWE at the very least like to watch other younger people available on other new media. In this case, the current crop of WWE's younger stars are probably a bit too old. The next up-and-coming YouTuber will likely be 20 or 21, if not younger. The next big WWE star will probably be 28, 29, or 30. WWE seems really shy to push a younger adult in the role of a top star. Roman Reigns is 34. Finn Balor is 37. Becky Lynch is 32. WWE isn't going to make a 22 year old man or woman a world champion. Again, for a 12, 17, or 22 year old kid, what's the hook to watch WWE TV? After all of this, then I think you can get into the issue of promos, characters, angles, booking, pushes, etc., that wrestling fans have (rightfully) complained about ad nauseam. Because WWE could do everything right that internet wrestling fans want when it comes to promos, angles, booking, and pushes, but it still probably wouldn't be enough to attract a newer audience segment that doesn't know, and, more likely, doesn't care about whatever it is that WWE produces. This feels pretty off-base. WWE's social media is as big as anyones. They do an awesome job at getting their content to people who don't watch TV. At a quick count, the video clips from this week's Raw have over 12m views on YouTube.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 19:17:16 GMT -5
I don’t agree that WWE is MySpace, as I think their trendy, hipster audience is what keeps them afloat at this time. You think their audience is trendy hipsters? Then why are they watching a show that is neither trendy nor hip?
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Post by Cyno on Jul 21, 2019 19:36:10 GMT -5
I don’t agree that WWE is MySpace, as I think their trendy, hipster audience is what keeps them afloat at this time. The median age for WWE's viewership is in the mid-50's. I don't know many 50 year olds that are trendy or hipsters.
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