Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
Posts: 5,511
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Dec 3, 2019 21:18:47 GMT -5
Let's use HHH as an example. I especially remember Billy Gunn and Orton.
How does the other members just continue on after something like that?
Just like that they beat up a guy that has been their friend and by their side for months on end, simply on HHH say so.
Should it not instead make them realise just how expendable they are in HHH's eyes? That they are only useful to him as long as they are obedient and do nothing to upstage him? Think; is this asshole going to do the same shit to me? When am I next?
Instead they just blindly stay devoted to someone who is never there for them (except when it is beneficial to him), but expect them to always be there for him.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Dec 3, 2019 21:56:18 GMT -5
“I’m loyal, that won’t happen to me”
Look at it in gang rules, as long as you don’t break the rules you won’t get f***ed by your boys. Now, as for the morality of what constitutes breaking the rules well that’s another story.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 3, 2019 22:04:47 GMT -5
Also, I think Batista saw what happened to Orton, went “...yeah, not gonna let that shit happen to me” and stared silently planning his split from the group that same night.
Big man was smarter than his handlers gave him credit for.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725 
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 3, 2019 22:28:45 GMT -5
“I’m loyal, that won’t happen to me” Look at it in gang rules, as long as you don’t break the rules you won’t get f***ed by your boys. Now, as for the morality of what constitutes breaking the rules well that’s another story. Storylines? That make sense? in WWE?! I keed, I keed. In the case of HHH, Batista ended up turning babyface on Trips in turn after he and Trips turned on Orton. Part of the value of a gang in pro wrestling is the potential for shifts in the dynamic to open up paths to new feuds within that faction. Add a new member whose commitment to the group may not be total or whose motives may not be pure. The challenge with them is in keeping the ideas fresh - especially when the nWo's shadow looms long and dark over the last 20 years or so of this sort of trope. The nWo failed because it was boxed into a booking corner in which it had conquered everything and had grown so large that nobody cared when it finally imploded. Ditto for Aces and Eights. Bullet Club originally worked in Japan because a) it kept its membership small enough that you could keep track of everyone, b) all were united by being gaijin in Japan, and c) departures from it were usually accompanied by departures from New Japan as well. When it fell apart, it was because the membership's numbers had exploded and many of them (Omega, Cody, the Bucks) left. All of them left a very long shadow that most promotions, I would hope, would try to avoid for a while before anyone thinks of resurrecting them. Yet, even now there are two factions derived from the shadow in WWE - the OC and the Undisputed Era. It's that shadow that has dogged Bullet Club's founder throughout his run so far in WWE. There are ways in which factions can be done right, and I think WWE has been doing them well (if nothing else lately.) But even the longest-running factions have to fall in time, and we need to let go of the DX mentality that factions should stay together without its members rising on the card or in the pecking order for all eternity. Otherwise, that shadow is going to linger over wrestling far longer, and every faction that follows it will be measured by that yardstick. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Dec 4, 2019 2:40:38 GMT -5
“I’m loyal, that won’t happen to me” Look at it in gang rules, as long as you don’t break the rules you won’t get f***ed by your boys. Now, as for the morality of what constitutes breaking the rules well that’s another story. Storylines? That make sense? in WWE?! The challenge with them is in keeping the ideas fresh - especially when the nWo's shadow looms long and dark over the last 20 years or so of this sort of trope. The nWo failed because it was boxed into a booking corner in which it had conquered everything and had grown so large that nobody cared when it finally imploded. No, I beg to differ. It was the quiet, afterthought nature in which it was dissolved which made nobody care. It became something people just drifted awwy from. Make no mistake, during 1996 - very early 99, the NWO was seen as strongly important. Even with the split and the Wolfpac it remained immensely popular. Revisionist history says that the NWO was a hot angle for 3 or 4 months and then crowds hated it and it tanked for the rest of its existence. The NWO was so successful that it went beyond a normal high profile forefront angle. To have it completely finished in a normal timeframe, say 9 months, would have been very short sighted by WCW. Yes, unfortunately they did over rely on it a little, yet their talent pool allowed others to flourish and rise in 97/98. I think in 1998 they had actually begun to master the NWO being a major factor while still having other angles with different wrestlers and such. How long could it continue for? Potentially even a lot longer tbh, even if Goldberg ran through them all in 1999, people still would love the Outsiders and Hollywood Hogan association. Wrestlers like Big Poppa Pump I kinda STILL associate with the group, due to him finding himself within them. So maybe with a huge chunk gone forcing a different perspective on the NWO, I'm sure it could have gone for a couple more years in some form, growing, changing, receeding, subverting..... Bottom line, I don't think it is fully understood that the NWO was not DX or Evolution, or Aces and Eights. It became a faction instead of a stable. It forever changed Hogan and I might have to argue he was most popular and successful in WCW under his Hollywood moniker. |
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 4, 2019 4:18:40 GMT -5
Storylines? That make sense? in WWE?! The challenge with them is in keeping the ideas fresh - especially when the nWo's shadow looms long and dark over the last 20 years or so of this sort of trope. The nWo failed because it was boxed into a booking corner in which it had conquered everything and had grown so large that nobody cared when it finally imploded. No, I beg to differ. It was the quiet, afterthought nature in which it was dissolved which made nobody care. It became something people just drifted awwy from. Without question - it had collapsed on itself in part because the main players left and those remaining "B-Team" could not keep it going at near the same level. It (and WCW as a whole) had also been hurt irreparably by the Fingerpoke of Doom. Everything that followed became more nails in the coffin for the company. That was not my point at all. My point was that the nWo/DX/Aces&Eights/Bullet club conglomeration has, in terms of the canon, cast such a long shadow over pro wrestling that any new faction angle is impossible to present without drawing comparisons or setting the expectation among fans of some reunion. I don't particularly care how popular it may be or who got over or gets over as a result - as a trope it need either to die so that it can be reborn or, at minimum, new and unaffiliated groups need to come to the fore, to put some distance between that old conglomeration and whichever new faction idea is waiting in the wings. That likely won't happen in WWE until the Bullet Club alumni have retired from the profession entirely or are reduced to utter jobber status in WWE (or consciously bury the idea that Bullet Club will ever be a thing in WWE.) |
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 4, 2019 4:41:42 GMT -5
Also, I think Batista saw what happened to Orton, went “...yeah, not gonna let that shit happen to me” and stared silently planning his split from the group that same night. Big man was smarter than his handlers gave him credit for. Specifically when it came to Evolution, the faction was founded on the premise that it was the Past, Present, and Future of the business. Hunter was the present, Flair was the past, Orton was the future, and Batista was...the muscle? With Orton gone, he was able to slide into that coveted Future slot and sit under the learning tree of Hunter and Flair unimpeded, but also taking the hint that they could potentially backstab him like they did to Randy. |
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,125
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 4, 2019 4:49:45 GMT -5
Also, I think Batista saw what happened to Orton, went “...yeah, not gonna let that shit happen to me” and stared silently planning his split from the group that same night. Big man was smarter than his handlers gave him credit for. That was definitely the impression I got. I loved that build, including Triple H trying to get in his head to take his title shot and challenge for Smackdown's belt instead. On its surface, why not do it, right? But he knew it was Triple H trying to manipulate him in order to not deal with him, rather than any actual friendship, and i like that it came across. |
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
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Post by trollrogue on Dec 4, 2019 10:39:27 GMT -5
I saw parallels to Booker T in the nWo with how Batista 'used' Evolution and HHH specifically to help him get that main event title spot, Batista knew that HHH was in it for himself the whole time but skillfully played the player to get what he wanted out of Evolution and leave on his own terms. This was kinda mirrored in the nWo (WWE version) led by Shawn Michaels, Booker T joined the group just to get what he wanted out of the group but never really bought into the nWo since there was some history with him in WCW fighting against the nWo (so it made sense for Booker to never be down '4Life' to that faction) and when HBK superkicked the grey matter out of Booker's skull to eliminate him from that group, Booker T went on to his biggest babyface push he ever had in the WWE (unfortunately it led to him jobbing to HHH at 'Mania but still). www.youtube.com/watch?v=BasTMvZDhd0 |
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 4, 2019 15:36:46 GMT -5
A heel faction usually has some sort of bizarre loyalty to the leaders. The ones getting kicked out & turning face are portrayed as the ones betraying the faction, not the lasers kicking them out. Ole Anderson getting kicked out of the Horsemen & thinking Ric Flair would side with him is a good example or Adam Cole trying to fire the Young Bucks from the Bullet Club would be the counter.
It should be about why the individual is getting removed from the group.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Dec 5, 2019 3:30:11 GMT -5
It (and WCW as a whole) had also been hurt irreparably by the Fingerpoke of Doom. Everything that followed became more nails in the coffin for the company. I see where you're coming from with the notion of needing to reinvent itself and new factions/stables rising. But this sentence I do disagree with. I don't think the incident of FPOD itself destroyed WCW irreparably. It was the fizzled aftermath of it. People who say WCW was unsalvagable after that are just being hyperbolic. Ratings rose, the crowd got invested. That's like saying Hogan winning the title at WM9 was a point of no return for mid 90s WWE. The decisions afterwards lent to it's demise, including the loss of $100 million. Let's not pretend WCW suddenly went down 4 rating points and everyone shunned it. This isn't the Doug Gilbert incident. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 5, 2019 3:47:35 GMT -5
Also, I think Batista saw what happened to Orton, went “...yeah, not gonna let that shit happen to me” and stared silently planning his split from the group that same night. Big man was smarter than his handlers gave him credit for. It was also the start of a 2-3 year run where Batista was basically the smartest person on the roster and almost no heels could ever out-fox him. I loved his program with Eddie, where as much as Eddie would try to f*** with Dave's head, Dave would just turn it right back on him. Such a great way to gradually turn Eddie babyface again. |
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