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Post by autisticgeordie on Dec 4, 2019 11:34:25 GMT -5
I personally don't have a problem with a high flying heel if their personality makes sure that they get booed regardless if they fly around? I mean, look at PAC, one of my favourite wrestlers on the indy scene, he's a dude who's built like a brick shithouse despite being so damn small and he's one of the surliest and meanest dudes you could step in the ring with and that still doesn't stop him from busting out the Black Arrow.
Granted PAC doesn't fly around as much as he did in his WWE babyface run, but that doesn't mean that he sticks to the ground all the time, but his personality and surly nature gets him over as a heel.
But, even if I don't personally have a problem with it, I understand why some people don't like the idea of a high flying heel because, if you're trying to get the crowd to boo you, then doing all these high flying moves which naturally pop the crowd is not going to work in your favour, but, in kayfabe, if you were a high flying wrestler who turned heel, why would you stop doing high flying moves just because the fans have a different reaction to you?
Say, for the sake of this argument that Ricochet turned heel, why would he stop doing the 630, a move that's got him a shed-load of victories in the past, just because his alignment switched?
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Dec 4, 2019 12:30:30 GMT -5
WWE made it work with Justin Gabriel
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Dec 4, 2019 12:49:38 GMT -5
Jack Evans
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Post by theresalwaysanegon on Dec 4, 2019 12:52:31 GMT -5
I really like ELP as the super athletic obnoxious high-flying heel in New Japan right now.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 4, 2019 12:54:09 GMT -5
I think the idea that heels don't do any cool moves needs to die.
A less fun and crowd popping moveset is a valid heel style, but the moves need to be treated as worthwhile risks and devastating blows. If a heel refuses to do them, it pokes a hole in the fiction.
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Magnus the Magnificent
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didn't want one.
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Dec 4, 2019 14:45:51 GMT -5
If a high-flyer heel is bragging and boasting about how great they are; "Look at my awesome moves, pathetic fase can't do my shit, hahahaaa!" I don't see the problem.
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agent817
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Post by agent817 on Dec 4, 2019 16:03:04 GMT -5
Didn't Shawn Michaels in the early-1990s do high-flying moves? He was a heel during that time.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 4, 2019 16:40:13 GMT -5
I thought for years that a high flying heel couldn't work. But I eventually felt like there are subtle differences.
Like, Seth Rollins has a babyface moveset, but also the way he does those moves seems somehow designed to pop the crowd rather than win the match. And it's not about being flashy, which some heels can do and make part of their gimmick.
Sammy Guevara, for example, gum chewing shitface that he is, seems like he is always trying to be impressive but never trying to impress us. And I don't mean this is an AEW vs. WWE thing either.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Dec 4, 2019 17:28:50 GMT -5
2 Cold and RVD were heels in ECW and they were noted high fliers. It's less "look at these spectacular moves" and more "screw this guy and his flips!". Especially guys like PAC who uses his moves to deal the most damage.
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Post by johnnyk9 on Dec 4, 2019 17:47:04 GMT -5
Snuka was originally a heel
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Post by doguncle on Dec 4, 2019 18:45:06 GMT -5
Bobby Eaton was a heel who did high-flying moves and needed Cornette to do his talking.
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Post by Starshine on Dec 4, 2019 20:05:45 GMT -5
Sammy Guevara is the best example of how this can work. The guy even got booed in PWG, and those fans loved everyone.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on Dec 4, 2019 20:52:30 GMT -5
I really like ELP as the super athletic obnoxious high-flying heel in New Japan right now. This was the first guy that popped in my head when I read the question. RVD did it back in the day as a, nobody can do what I do look how much better I am than everybody, type of heel which I thought was great. It seems like this is more of a WWE mindset than in any other company. One of my favorite wrestlers for years is Kevin Owens and what WWE has done to his moveset as a heel is a joke. He's capable of so much more than endless chin locks.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 5, 2019 5:49:11 GMT -5
It’s not so much about the moves themselves as it is what the wrestlers do with them. Fans are popping for an exciting babyface comeback moreso than they are for a spectacular move by itself.
If Steve Austin was healthy and wrestling Guevara today, he could get some huge reactions from him with just hard right hands and a running Thesz press.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 5, 2019 7:21:15 GMT -5
I mean, I don't know anymore. Yeah, a guy like Guevara as a narcissistic, self-absorbed twinky pretty boy using that sort of offense to say people like him have changed the business and there's no place for ugly old punch-and-kick fossils threatened by his grace and good looks and ability to do things they can't even dream of...
...But then I wonder if that should really be a heel in 2020?
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 5, 2019 7:24:55 GMT -5
I mean, I don't know anymore. Yeah, a guy like Guevara as a narcissistic, self-absorbed twinky pretty boy using that sort of offense to say people like him have changed the business and there's no place for ugly old punch-and-kick fossils threatened by his grace and good looks and ability to do things they can't even dream of... ...But then I wonder if that should really be a heel in 2020? Someone who thinks they're better than everyone else? When the hell would that not be a heel gimmick?
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Allie Kitsune
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Celestial Princess in Exile.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 5, 2019 7:34:03 GMT -5
I mean, I don't know anymore. Yeah, a guy like Guevara as a narcissistic, self-absorbed twinky pretty boy using that sort of offense to say people like him have changed the business and there's no place for ugly old punch-and-kick fossils threatened by his grace and good looks and ability to do things they can't even dream of... ...But then I wonder if that should really be a heel in 2020? Someone who thinks they're better than everyone else? When the hell would that not be a heel gimmick? Pushing aside the old ways to advance the new is usually (not always, of course) seen as a face thing, though. I guess it depends on the opposing face's motivation.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 5, 2019 7:37:34 GMT -5
Someone who thinks they're better than everyone else? When the hell would that not be a heel gimmick? Pushing aside the old ways to advance the new is usually (not always, of course) seen as a face thing, though. I guess it depends on the opposing face's motivation. I don’t feel it’s Sammy’s youth that’s getting him heel heat so much as his attitude. He is sucking up to someone from a previous generation in Y2J after all. Also Cody is on the younger end of current stars and is all about looking forward, and AEW crowds go Gaga for him.
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Post by eJm on Dec 5, 2019 7:41:23 GMT -5
Pushing aside the old ways to advance the new is usually (not always, of course) seen as a face thing, though. I guess it depends on the opposing face's motivation. I don’t feel it’s Sammy’s youth that’s getting him heel heat so much as his attitude. He is sucking up to someone from a previous generation in Y2J after all. Also Cody is on the younger end of current stars and is all about looking forward, and AEW crowds go Gaga for him. Also he literally calls himself "The Best Ever". Like...come on.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 5, 2019 9:49:09 GMT -5
I don’t feel it’s Sammy’s youth that’s getting him heel heat so much as his attitude. He is sucking up to someone from a previous generation in Y2J after all. Also Cody is on the younger end of current stars and is all about looking forward, and AEW crowds go Gaga for him. Also he literally calls himself "The Best Ever". Like...come on. And "Spanish God". This isn't about being young. Even among young people going against older people, you can think other young people are assholes.
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