Shawn V Diesel WM11 Who was heel who was face ?

[mauled]

Rewatching the match and it's a little bit puzzling. Shawn is meant to be the heel but he acts like a face during much of it. Diesel is meant to be face, Vince calls him the Underdog on commentary, yet for much of it he's playing the Monster heel role, at one point, literally picking Shawn up and throwing him about. It culminates with Shawn super kicking him with the Ref down, which really makes out he won the match even though he didn't. Anyway what are others thoughts on this match

www.dailymotion.com/video/xlmriy

[Mozenrath]

Kevin was the face, though I think they just structured it that way because it's not like they could really have Diesel get beat up the whole match,

I feel like this dynamic worked better with Undertaker for the Badd Blood Hell in a Cell match, where Shawn was a more clearly defined heel character, and Undertaker was such an established force by then. Diesel was not an outright rookie, no, but this was still a higher profile than Nash had really been prepared for just yet. There's a real difference between his responsibilities as Vinnie Vegas and main eventing.

[Deleted]

Very good match, doesn't really get talked about much since it happened at a god awful WM.

[mauled]

Dec 27, 2019 7:50:56 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Kevin was the face, though I think they just structured it that way because it's not like they could really have Diesel get beat up the whole match,

I feel like this dynamic worked better with Undertaker for the Badd Blood Hell in a Cell match, where Shawn was a more clearly defined heel character, and Undertaker was such an established force by then. Diesel was not an outright rookie, no, but this was still a higher profile than Nash had really been prepared for just yet. There's a real difference between his responsibilities as Vinnie Vegas and main eventing.

The other helped that storyline wise it was just Taker trying to get revenge for being attacked by Shawn whereas this was Shawn trying to win the belt off Diesel.

[The Rick Jericho]

Dec 27, 2019 8:13:41 GMT -5 @dax said:

Very good match, doesn't really get talked about much since it happened at a god awful WM.

They made up for it thankfully in Nash's final match at In Your House.

[johnnyk9]

Shawn was the heel did you all watch the lead up to the match

[mauled]

Dec 27, 2019 10:49:46 GMT -5 johnnyk9 said:

Shawn was the heel did you all watch the lead up to the match

Yes we know he was the heel. The point was he played it as a face in the match. Even Nash felt Shawn had done it deliberately during that match, though he felt no animosity over it.

[SmashTV]

I remember quite a considerable amount of fans booing when Diesel kicked out of the super kick. Even though I knew Shawn was the heel I found it interesting that the fans had embraced him over Diesel. Whether this was due to his talent and charisma or a general apathy toward Diesel - or maybe even a combination of the two - I don’t know. I just remember it feeling like a changing of the fan dynamic when the face got booed for kicking out.

As a side note, on the Something to Wrestle With podcast Bruce said that he and Pat Patterson had spent a few months trying to persuade Vince - unsuccessfully - to turn Shawn face due to the reactions he was getting. Vince wouldn’t have it and disagreed until after the WMXI main event. According to Bruce he walked into a meeting with them and said - in all seriousness - ‘Am I the ONLY one around here who sees that Shawn should have been made a face MONTHS AGO?!?!’

[auph10imitated]

I’m pretty sure it’s why Shawn went face the next night on RAW when they were originally going to drag out the feud until the summer. I imagine we would have gotten Sid & Shawn vs Diesel & Bam Bam at the King of the Ring and then Sid vs Diesel at Summerslam but they rushed to Sid/Diesel after they turned Shawn face

[cjh]

Dec 27, 2019 12:37:23 GMT -5 SmashTV said:

I remember quite a considerable amount of fans booing when Diesel kicked out of the super kick. Even though I knew Shawn was the heel I found it interesting that the fans had embraced him over Diesel. Whether this was due to his talent and charisma or a general apathy toward Diesel - or maybe even a combination of the two - I don’t know. I just remember it feeling like a changing of the fan dynamic when the face got booed for kicking out.

As a side note, on the Something to Wrestle With podcast Bruce said that he and Pat Patterson had spent a few months trying to persuade Vince - unsuccessfully - to turn Shawn face due to the reactions he was getting. Vince wouldn’t have it and disagreed until after the WMXI main event. According to Bruce he walked into a new with them and said - in all seriousness - ‘Am I the ONLY one around here who sees that Shawn should have been made a face MONTHS AGO?!?!’

On the Shawn Michaels: Mr. WrestleMania set, Shawn said he and Nash told Vince that it needed to be a 2.99 count, but Vince insisted it be a 1-count.  Vince then admitted to them after the match that they were correct.

[rnrk supports BLM]

IIRC, didn't they rerecord commentary for this and a few other WM11 matches for the Coliseum video release, due to audio problems on the original broadcast? Shawn had turned face by then so it wouldn't surprise me if they played him up more sympathetically the second time.

[bob]

Pamela Anderson at ring side

[cjh]

Dec 27, 2019 18:09:37 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

IIRC, didn't they rerecord commentary for this and a few other WM11 matches for the Coliseum video release, due to audio problems on the original broadcast? Shawn had turned face by then so it wouldn't surprise me if they played him up more sympathetically the second time.

No, the Coliseum Video release has the original commentary for the whole show.  McMahon and Lawler, though, did record new commentary for the match (plus LT/Bigelow) for the 1-hour WM XI special that aired on Fox in September 1995.

[rnrk supports BLM]

Dec 27, 2019 18:13:20 GMT -5 cjh said:

Dec 27, 2019 18:09:37 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

IIRC, didn't they rerecord commentary for this and a few other WM11 matches for the Coliseum video release, due to audio problems on the original broadcast? Shawn had turned face by then so it wouldn't surprise me if they played him up more sympathetically the second time.

No, the Coliseum Video release has the original commentary for the whole show.  McMahon and Lawler, though, did record new commentary for the match (plus LT/Bigelow) for the 1-hour WM XI special that aired on Fox in September 1995.

Ah, got it, that must be what I was thinking of.

Either way, I know when I first saw the match, Vince was already talking about Shawn's boyhood dream of winning the championship on commentary, which seems a really weird angle to use for a guy who isn't a babyface or about to turn.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Dec 27, 2019 18:07:09 GMT -5 cjh said:

Dec 27, 2019 12:37:23 GMT -5 SmashTV said:

I remember quite a considerable amount of fans booing when Diesel kicked out of the super kick. Even though I knew Shawn was the heel I found it interesting that the fans had embraced him over Diesel. Whether this was due to his talent and charisma or a general apathy toward Diesel - or maybe even a combination of the two - I don’t know. I just remember it feeling like a changing of the fan dynamic when the face got booed for kicking out.

As a side note, on the Something to Wrestle With podcast Bruce said that he and Pat Patterson had spent a few months trying to persuade Vince - unsuccessfully - to turn Shawn face due to the reactions he was getting. Vince wouldn’t have it and disagreed until after the WMXI main event. According to Bruce he walked into a new with them and said - in all seriousness - ‘Am I the ONLY one around here who sees that Shawn should have been made a face MONTHS AGO?!?!’

On the Shawn Michaels: Mr. WrestleMania set, Shawn said he and Nash told Vince that it needed to be a 2.99 count, but Vince insisted it be a 1-count.  Vince then admitted to them after the match that they were correct.

They’re right. Or at least stuck to that story. But Shawn would have turned eventually because at that point it was clear he was the best in the company, with Bret being out and saddled with Backlund, matches were fine but not very good.

[Rumble McSkirmish]

Dec 27, 2019 17:54:00 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

I’m pretty sure it’s why Shawn went face the next night on RAW when they were originally going to drag out the feud until the summer. I imagine we would have gotten Sid & Shawn vs Diesel & Bam Bam at the King of the Ring and then Sid vs Diesel at Summerslam but they rushed to Sid/Diesel after they turned Shawn face

According to Prichard's podcast this match was in fact the tipping point to convince Vince to turn Shawn face (Something that Bruce and Pat Patterson had been pushing for almost a year at that point.) Vince even made that decision during the limo ride home from the event that very evening.

[horsemen4ever]

Well that is why I prefer the In Your House: Good Friends Bitter Enemies match, they were in the correct roles.

Of course Diesel is the heel, he crushed a boyhood's dream.