The November 19 2001 Episode of RAW...

[sungod2020]

Does anybody think this episode of RAW did long-term damage to the company(creatively and fan support) in the long run? I think it might've played a hand in it. 

It was the night after the Survivor Series and the WWF prevailed against the Alliance, which at that point consisted mainly of WWF stars claiming their allegiance was with WCW/ECW, which of course made them baddies. As a result, they were out of a job, unless they held a championship, or in Test's case, won a battle royal granting him a year's worth of immunity.

Throughout the night, WWF chairman Mr. McMahon was taunting the remnants of The Alliance and most memorably, had their commisioner, William Regal pucker up and became the inaugural member of his "Kiss My Ass Club" in order to keep his job. Okay, so the owner's team won and he was rubbing it in a little bit, a heelish move, but he's still seemingly a face in this instant.

Also, Kurt Angle, who was originally part of team WWF defects to the Alliance and starts raising hell with his newfound brethren. Then at the end of the Survivor Series, he clobbers Alliance leader "Stone Cold" Steve Austin with the WWF championship costing team WCW/ECW the match and their jobs which means he was playing a mole all along....Or was he?

On that very episode of RAW, Kurt Angle is revered with praise both by the fans(one even had a "Thank You Kurt" sign) and Mr. McMahon himself for saving the WWF from impending doom. Actually, its been revealed that only "saved" the World Wrestling Federation not because of his allegiance to the company, but to ensure he had a job, because in weeks prior, he was hitting the roster with chairs, and now all of a sudden, he should be embraced as a hero.

Despite his self-congratulating attitude, no one on the roster found Angle to be the conquering hero he was portraying himself as and by the end of Raw he was depressed and told Vince McMahon that no one appreciated him. McMahon agreed with Angle and looked for a way to reward him.

That reward came in the ring moments later, as McMahon was about to announce the stripping of the WWF Championship from Steve Austin, who had not yet appeared on the show. McMahon's intent was to award it to Kurt Angle as a token of his appreciation for Angle's actions at Survivor Series. However, before he could do so he was interrupted by Ric Flair, who returned to a WWF ring for the first time since January 1993. Flair then happily told McMahon that he "had bet on a winner last night," and said to a surprised McMahon that when Shane and Stephanie sold their stock in the WWF to purchase WCW and ECW, he was the consortium who had bought the stock, and as such, he was co-owner of the WWF and he and McMahon were now partners.


Austin then angrily returned, promptly going to the ring and attacking Angle, and then McMahon when he tried to help, while Flair idly stood by. Austin then returned home to the WWF fans since abandoning them at Wrestlemania X-7, only for it to be glossed over that 24 hours earlier, he tried to run the very company he made out of business. Commentator Jim Ross even mentioned that "Angle screwed over Stone Cold and The Texas Rattlesnake will make sure he dosen't forget it." Did it ever occur to him that if Angle didn't screw over Austin, JR would be on the unemployment line?

Yes, things were starting to go downhill creatively a year earlier with the whole "Who Ran Over Austin" reveal(only for it to be Rikishi) and the move to TNN from USA didn't help things, but overall the WWF was still very profitable at that time. This episode of RAW likely did more damage to the WWF/E in the long term than any convoluted booking the whole Invasion mess did.

Its like they pushed the reset botton. Things were starting to change within the company(a chance to make new stars and such) and then they got back to the same formula they were before the whole thing happened(such as Austin and Angle reverting back to their babyface and heel roles). It also didn't help that the company still tried to milk the whole "Crash TV" teat long after its been dry(see the Smackdown 2002/3 thread) shortly thereafter.

Sure, WWE had some good moments post Attitude/Invasion era, but from 2001/2 onwards, its never reclaimed the same popularity it had since, which is concerning since pro wrestling is suppose to be cynical. The gap between now and The Attitude Era is far wider than the Attitude Era was to his previous boom period, the Golden Era. Which means we could've had a boom period(maybe two) within that time frame.

Any thoughts on that infamous episode and any other long term damage it might've done to the company?

[fw91]

Yeah it was completely stupid, but perhaps it was them washing their hands clean of the invasion.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

I loved Flair’s return, but hated pretty much everything else about the restart episode. I was beyond sick of Face Austin, I hated how the Invasion played out and was pissed most of that talent was off TV, never really cared for babyface Rock, if not for the nWo coming in and Hunter’s return I honestly might have tuned right out for a bit. I was really burnt out on WWE at that point, and was looking for any sort of wrestling alternative. I even watched the WWA PPV’s and watched NWA-TNA from Day 1, my buddy used to get me ROH videos, I was desperate for any alternatives to WWE for awhile.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

I did really enjoy that they didn't make Angle a face again out of the Alliance turn. Dude was clearly playing both sides and had guaranteed himself a job regardless of which side he chose, so the fact that everyone, except Vince, saw through it entirely, was very much a good thing.

Also, the fact that he tried to condescend to Edge, who had guaranteed himself a job through legitimate means was neat story touch.

But yeah, Flair would have been appreciated during the Invasion angle, not afterwards.

[Ben Wyatt]

Absolutely no question. Essentially telling the audience that everything over the last 6 months didn't happen pretty much pissed off everyone while also doing longterm damage to a number of talents, namely Kurt Angle was never going to work.

Having Vince embrace the guys who had just tried running him out of business over the next 2 weeks was especially mind blowingly stupid

[-Lithium-]

It is without question the laziest booking move of all time. Nothing is worse. Nothing is more insulting to the viewers intelligence. Nothing comes remotely close. Of course if you watch the segment on YouTube you get the "ZOMG TEH ATTITODE EAR IS THE BESTORZ!!1! DIS REAL WRESLTIN!!1!1" bullshit comments. But seriously, its horrendous.

[eJm]

It’s one of those things where saying “Well, they wanted to just wash your hands of it” doesn’t when you’re the ones that booked it and made it a massive thing for months.

Back then I was confused as a 13 year old and now it’s pretty much seemingly be a normal edition of Raw. Hell, the McMahon statement is probably the closest we’re going to get but at least with the Post Invasion Raw, you at least tried to ignore the thing and set other stuff up. Corbin somehow was still headlining shows after practically your entire back room staff threw him under the three decker bus from Harry Potter.

[Bang Bang Bart]

I will say this: Heyman getting dragged out of the arena by security was kinda cool. Flair showing up, as well.

[DoubleDare]

They really thought they could just go back to being the atttude era WWF after Survivor Series, and its like no, too much changed.
Though there was some gems from them trying to really go back like the supermarket brawl with Austiin and Booker t.

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

My main issue was Austin's turn. I could get Angle turning. But at least do a slow burn for Stone Cold.

[Mecca]

Some of this was because Stone Cold didn't wanna be a heel, like being a heel and they had all decided turning him at Mania didn't work even though at the time they thought it was a good idea. Looking back they'd probably all say that was a mistake and Steve had a lot of babyface time left in that run.

[realist]

Mar 8, 2020 23:07:00 GMT -5 Oh Cry Me a Screwball said:

I did really enjoy that they didn't make Angle a face again out of the Alliance turn. Dude was clearly playing both sides and had guaranteed himself a job regardless of which side he chose, so the fact that everyone, except Vince, saw through it entirely, was very much a good thing.

Also, the fact that he tried to condescend to Edge, who had guaranteed himself a job through legitimate means was neat story touch.

But yeah, Flair would have been appreciated during the Invasion angle, not afterwards.

I totally disagree. It's been nearly 20 years, so perhaps I am misremembering but Kurt Angle actually handed the WWF the victory at Survivor Series by hitting Steve Austin with a title, allowing The Rock to get the victory. Also, if I remember correctly (again it was almost 20 years ago) I feel like they outright stated or heavily implied that it was Vince McMahon's idea to send Kurt Angle over to the Alliance as a mole. He was Vince McMahon's insurance policy.

[Jake, The Jake, Jake]

Honestly I think a whole lot of damage was done a month earlier when Kurt turned heel and joined the Alliance to begin with. The WWF had been in desperate need of a new top babyface since Austin turned at Mania, and they finally had one in Kurt. The Austin/Angle feud was so hot, and their match at Summerslam that year is one of the best of both men’s careers. Kurt should have stayed the conquering hero, but instead they had him turn in October as an attempt to squeeze a little more mileage out of this five-month angle that everyone was already fatigued by. Then they were tasked with flipping his allegiance two more times in 24 hours and expecting the audience to go along with that. Having Kurt go from heel to face to heel to face to heel between April and November was just too much.

[Ben Wyatt]

Mar 9, 2020 8:38:02 GMT -5 Jake, The Jake, Jake said:

Honestly I think a whole lot of damage was done a month earlier when Kurt turned heel and joined the Alliance to begin with. The WWF had been in desperate need of a new top babyface since Austin turned at Mania, and they finally had one in Kurt. The Austin/Angle feud was so hot, and their match at Summerslam that year is one of the best of both men’s careers. Kurt should have stayed the conquering hero, but instead they had him turn in October as an attempt to squeeze a little more mileage out of this five-month angle that everyone was already fatigued by. Then they were tasked with flipping his allegiance two more times in 24 hours and expecting the audience to go along with that. Having Kurt go from heel to face to heel to face to heel between April and November was just too much.

Sweet holy hell, THANK YOU!  A trillion times this.  

   And really, having him be the mole could have actually worked had he been a face after Survivor Series. He opens Raw with something along the lines of "Remember, my 3 I's? What was one of them?...INTELLEGENCE! I used it to fool the Alliance into a false sense of security and it worked. To the members of the WWF locker room and the fans, I'm sorry I had to keep you in the dark, it was the only sure way to ensure it would work"

[hassanchop]

Mar 9, 2020 8:38:02 GMT -5 Jake, The Jake, Jake said:

Honestly I think a whole lot of damage was done a month earlier when Kurt turned heel and joined the Alliance to begin with. The WWF had been in desperate need of a new top babyface since Austin turned at Mania, and they finally had one in Kurt. The Austin/Angle feud was so hot, and their match at Summerslam that year is one of the best of both men’s careers. Kurt should have stayed the conquering hero, but instead they had him turn in October as an attempt to squeeze a little more mileage out of this five-month angle that everyone was already fatigued by. Then they were tasked with flipping his allegiance two more times in 24 hours and expecting the audience to go along with that. Having Kurt go from heel to face to heel to face to heel between April and November was just too much.

Especially considering they were playing with the post 9/11 patriotic feel good moments with Kurt. That was just awkward. The end of this fiasco made the New Blood look good by comparison, well except for the Kevin Nash squashing everyone without pinning them, that was the worst. But still, it just felt they wanted to be done with it because they feel they couldn't salvage it, kinda makes you wonder how things would've gone if they followed Russo's idea to restart the Invasion with the big stars of WCW they had recently acquired. Then again it was Vince Russo so probably you shouldn't wonder.

[sungod2020]

Mar 9, 2020 9:12:53 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

Mar 9, 2020 8:38:02 GMT -5 Jake, The Jake, Jake said:

Honestly I think a whole lot of damage was done a month earlier when Kurt turned heel and joined the Alliance to begin with. The WWF had been in desperate need of a new top babyface since Austin turned at Mania, and they finally had one in Kurt. The Austin/Angle feud was so hot, and their match at Summerslam that year is one of the best of both men’s careers. Kurt should have stayed the conquering hero, but instead they had him turn in October as an attempt to squeeze a little more mileage out of this five-month angle that everyone was already fatigued by. Then they were tasked with flipping his allegiance two more times in 24 hours and expecting the audience to go along with that. Having Kurt go from heel to face to heel to face to heel between April and November was just too much.

Sweet holy hell, THANK YOU!  A trillion times this.  

   And really, having him be the mole could have actually worked had he been a face after Survivor Series. He opens Raw with something along the lines of "Remember, my 3 I's? What was one of them?...INTELLEGENCE! I used it to fool the Alliance into a false sense of security and it worked. To the members of the WWF locker room and the fans, I'm sorry I had to keep you in the dark, it was the only sure way to ensure it would work"

That would've at least help salvaged the Invasion somewhat by producing a new star that the fans could get behind. May not have lead to a new boom period, but it was something different than before.

What I want to know though is, what could be done with a still heel Austin? At that point fans started embracing him again(they didn't fully hate him to begin with) and his "what?" chanting was catching on. Seriously though, his career reached the twilight and by the time the calender flipped to 2002, he was seemed somewhat out of place. A face term seemed imminent to "redeem" his legacy.

[Starshine]

Honestly, it just kind of exposed that they never really had their hearts in the Invasion to begin with. It kind of placed value to the whole angle akin to what was essentially a long form bottle episode.

"That was fun, wasn't it? Well... back to work everyone."

[Ben Wyatt]

Mar 9, 2020 17:41:03 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Mar 9, 2020 9:12:53 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

Sweet holy hell, THANK YOU!  A trillion times this.  

   And really, having him be the mole could have actually worked had he been a face after Survivor Series. He opens Raw with something along the lines of "Remember, my 3 I's? What was one of them?...INTELLEGENCE! I used it to fool the Alliance into a false sense of security and it worked. To the members of the WWF locker room and the fans, I'm sorry I had to keep you in the dark, it was the only sure way to ensure it would work"

That would've at least help salvaged the Invasion somewhat by producing a new star that the fans could get behind. May not have lead to a new boom period, but it was something different than before.

What I want to know though is, what could be done with a still heel Austin? At that point fans started embracing him again(they didn't fully hate him to begin with) and his "what?" chanting was catching on. Seriously though, his career reached the twilight and by the time the calender flipped to 2002, he was seemed somewhat out of place. A face term seemed imminent to "redeem" his legacy.

Austin could have done a lone wolf thing where absolutely nobody trusted him and he had everyone, both WWF and former alliance guys, gunning for him and the title

[Moppy]

I can say from personal experience, it turned me off from watching WWE for about 2 years.

I was only 11 years old, and even then I was like, "oh shit, so they're going back to having everything *exactly* the same as it was before this all happened. No thanks."

Then Ric Flair turned up and I had no idea who he was at the time, lol.