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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on May 7, 2020 16:37:56 GMT -5
Right, but a bunch of folks wouldn't have accepted any reason they gave regardless. I probably wouldn't have. It was just an awful risk to take on a character who wasn't begging for reinvention. I'm sure the reaction wouldn't have been all positive, given that he was pretty much made to be alienating to most viewers, but I'd argue that cinematic Joker could be in need of a bit of reinvention; just feel like there's a bit too much of a streak out of there of people who watched Nicholson, Ledger, and Phoenix and like the character for being showy and cool (Nicholson), nihilistically philosophical and badass (Ledger), or initially relatable before launching into screeds about society's shortcomings that people can at least partially agree with (Phoenix).With those in mind, I could be convinced of the potential "need" for a more straight-up shitbag Joker who's not meant to inspire any sort of sympathy or desire for emulation...but yeah, by its nature that would have led to some level of backlash even with a script/film where it actually fit and could potentially work. Literally no interpretation was attempting to be more “showy and cool” than Letos.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 7, 2020 20:35:25 GMT -5
I'm sure the reaction wouldn't have been all positive, given that he was pretty much made to be alienating to most viewers, but I'd argue that cinematic Joker could be in need of a bit of reinvention; just feel like there's a bit too much of a streak out of there of people who watched Nicholson, Ledger, and Phoenix and like the character for being showy and cool (Nicholson), nihilistically philosophical and badass (Ledger), or initially relatable before launching into screeds about society's shortcomings that people can at least partially agree with (Phoenix).With those in mind, I could be convinced of the potential "need" for a more straight-up shitbag Joker who's not meant to inspire any sort of sympathy or desire for emulation...but yeah, by its nature that would have led to some level of backlash even with a script/film where it actually fit and could potentially work. Literally no interpretation was attempting to be more “showy and cool” than Letos. No, those attempts actually were showy and cool (at least Nicholson and Ledger, in their own different ways). The idea is that Leto's is trying too hard to be showy and cool, and thus is instead offputting and alienating, which is not the cinematic Joker we're accustomed to but is not fundamentally a "wrong" approach to a character like the Joker given his history.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 7, 2020 20:49:40 GMT -5
Script did him no favors. His Joker was completely superfluous and he didn't interact with any other character besides Harley at all outside of the 2 minute copter scene and even that meant nothing to the plot.
The look if you strip away the tattoos is fine. The tats just looked sort of dumb.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on May 7, 2020 20:57:29 GMT -5
Literally no interpretation was attempting to be more “showy and cool” than Letos. No, those attempts actually were showy and cool (at least Nicholson and Ledger, in their own different ways). The idea is that Leto's is trying too hard to be showy and cool, and thus is instead offputting and alienating, which is not the cinematic Joker we're accustomed to but is not fundamentally a "wrong" approach to a character like the Joker given his history. I think that's an aspect where the minimal screen time of Leto really hurt him. You can hypothetically have that alienating aspect if there's enough to suggest there's more to him than that with other layers or elements that compliment the off-putting presentation. But the script and/or the editing leaves him only with trashy desperation and basically nothing else. Its like showing only the hammy comedic bits of John de Lancie's Q character from Star Trek TNG without any of the darker or more philosophical moments that defined him as more than just the trickster imp.
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Post by häšhtå.gdālėÿ on May 7, 2020 21:23:58 GMT -5
It’s funny, because my heart breaks whenever I see Leto’s Joker.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on May 7, 2020 21:30:30 GMT -5
No, those attempts actually were showy and cool (at least Nicholson and Ledger, in their own different ways). The idea is that Leto's is trying too hard to be showy and cool, and thus is instead offputting and alienating, which is not the cinematic Joker we're accustomed to but is not fundamentally a "wrong" approach to a character like the Joker given his history. I think that's an aspect where the minimal screen time of Leto really hurt him. You can hypothetically have that alienating aspect if there's enough to suggest there's more to him than that with other layers or elements that compliment the off-putting presentation. But the script and/or the editing leaves him only with trashy desperation and basically nothing else. Its like showing only the hammy comedic bits of John de Lancie's Q character from Star Trek TNG without any of the darker or more philosophical moments that defined him as more than just the trickster imp. In response to the “minimal screen time” defense, I ask what the hell was he doing in the screen time he did have. The scene with Common, the scene with the cop, the vat scene with Harley, even f***ing rescuing Harley do him no favors. There’s no consistency. There’s nothing to hold on to. It all comes off as off kilter. “Well Jokers supposed to be crazy..” but you can’t play crazy. Because what does that mean? Crazy people don’t believe they’re crazy, which is why, as an actor, you have to give characters realistic motivations wants. I see none of that in the screen time he had. And I’d be willing to bet my bottom dollar it’s absent in the deleted scenes as well. It’s just him playing “crazy” whatever he think “crazy” is. Which is why it comes off so uninteresting. Maybe it’s partly Ayers fault too, I dunno. But I’m not willing to give Leto the benefit of the doubt his “full portrayal” wasn’t shown, because what little of it we did see was f***ing terrible.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on May 7, 2020 21:38:40 GMT -5
I think that's an aspect where the minimal screen time of Leto really hurt him. You can hypothetically have that alienating aspect if there's enough to suggest there's more to him than that with other layers or elements that compliment the off-putting presentation. But the script and/or the editing leaves him only with trashy desperation and basically nothing else. Its like showing only the hammy comedic bits of John de Lancie's Q character from Star Trek TNG without any of the darker or more philosophical moments that defined him as more than just the trickster imp. In response to the “minimal screen time” defense, I ask what the hell was he doing in the screen time he did have. The scene with Common, the scene with the cop, the vat scene with Harley, even f***ing rescuing Harley do him no favors. There’s no consistency. There’s nothing to hold on to. It all comes off as off kilter. “Well Jokers supposed to be crazy..” but you can’t play crazy. Because what does that mean? Crazy people don’t believe they’re crazy, which is why, as an actor, you have to give characters realistic motivations wants. I see none of that in the screen time he had. And I’d be willing to bet my bottom dollar it’s absent in the deleted scenes as well. It’s just him playing “crazy” whatever he think “crazy” is. Which is why it comes off so uninteresting. Maybe it’s partly Ayers fault too, I dunno. But I’m not willing to give Leto the benefit of the doubt his “full portrayal” wasn’t shown, because what little of it we did see was f***ing terrible. Honestly my own suspicion is that its a combination of both. Joker in the story was dubiously thought out in terms of writing and performance the more the production went on (likely rooted in a surface level understanding of the character that's endemic to much of the DCCU) and that the bits we did see were not likely the strongest sections either.
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Post by Perd on May 7, 2020 21:57:04 GMT -5
I fell asleep halfway through this movie and haven’t thought about it since.
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Post by Clutchhausen on May 7, 2020 22:58:29 GMT -5
I have a nothing to add except Margot Robbie was a damn good Harley Quinn and Birds Of Prey was awesome.
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Post by häšhtå.gdālėÿ on May 7, 2020 23:21:08 GMT -5
I have a nothing to add except Margot Robbie was a damn good Harley Quinn and Birds Of Prey was awesome. Agreed! Even Suicide Squad is a perfectly watchable movie to me. Will Smith is always likable, I love Margot’s Harley, and Capt. Boomerang was fun.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 7, 2020 23:24:37 GMT -5
I have a nothing to add except Margot Robbie was a damn good Harley Quinn and Birds Of Prey was awesome. Agreed! Even Suicide Squad is a perfectly watchable movie to me. Will Smith is always likable, I love Margot’s Harley, and Capt. Boomerang was fun. Yea, the movie itself was just brain melting fun Like if you just go full fast and furious where this is meant to be entertainment and the story don't matter, they would had a franchise
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 8, 2020 2:38:15 GMT -5
Another kind of funny thing is they got a big name to play Deadshot in Will Smith&he was one of the better parts of that movie but I'd almost guarantee he never shows up again.
Though I guess at least they got more from him than Joe Maganiello as Deathstroke as 2 minutes in an after credit scene that won't ever go anywhere is all we'll ever see of him in DC.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 3:19:02 GMT -5
About the only thing I remember about Deadshot is that scene where he puts his mask on for no reason other than so someone besides Will Smith can do the subsequent fight scene.
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 8, 2020 3:58:09 GMT -5
In a vacuum in and of itself, I've got no real issues with Leto's Joker. No, it's not Ledger's or Nicholson's or the comic version. I won't base it on any of those preconceptions, I don't find it fair. As that character, it was fine for what it was. He tried, and gets a lot of undue grief over it because of those preconceptions. Definitely not on-board with some of his "method" antics to get himself into the role, but that's a separate issue.
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Post by Dub H on May 8, 2020 4:20:32 GMT -5
suicide squad should have had 0 Joker anywau
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 8, 2020 7:52:51 GMT -5
Following up Ledger was always going to be thankless due to fan's reception anyway as people had decided that Heaths was the definitive version. (Dumb, cuz while an excellent take, there is no definitive version).
Joaquin Phoenix should really send Leto a fruit basket for jumping on that grenade first.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 8, 2020 7:58:35 GMT -5
When it comes to the DCEU, the only people who I feel bad for are Henry Cavill and Gal Godot. It seems like Cavill so badly wants to or at least wanted to make a Superman movie where he actually gets to be Superman, and not Zack Snyder's garbage "deconstruction" that he and his hack wife were touting. I feel for the guy, he could have done a fine job with someone who actually cares about DC Comics at the helm.
I feel bad for Gal because she seems to take what Wonder Woman is about to heart. And unless they do some kind of timeline retcon, she's always going to be linked to the garbage pile that is the DCEU.
David Ayer's terrible movie and Jared Leto's unnecessary "method" bullshit? Nah, don't feel bad. Not even a little.
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Post by DerktheDerk on May 8, 2020 8:39:41 GMT -5
I just want to say that, as someone who has met Jared Leto, my heart will never break for him. The man is a prima donna asshole.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 8, 2020 9:56:20 GMT -5
It seems like Cavill so badly wants to or at least wanted to make a Superman movie where he actually gets to be Superman, and not Zack Snyder's garbage "deconstruction" that he and his hack wife were touting. I feel for the guy, he could have done a fine job with someone who actually cares about DC Comics at the helm. I think Cavill will end up getting to play the kind of Superman he clearly pines for, it simply comes down to scheduling. He's become a big player in Hollywood, and is still technically under contract for a couple more appearances as Kal, and is generally well-liked in the role even if people overall don't like MOS, BVS and JL. I doubt Warner Bros. will let him go without trying a more traditional Superman movie first.
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Post by DerktheDerk on May 8, 2020 21:15:24 GMT -5
I have a nothing to add except Margot Robbie was a damn good Harley Quinn and Birds Of Prey was awesome. Absolutely. My favorite comic book movie in recent memory. Not since the Tim Burton Batman movies have I felt like I was 'watching a comic book', if that makes sense. But yeah, it's such a fun movie.
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