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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jul 28, 2020 21:42:15 GMT -5
The bit that really stood out to me: "I like to be angry about wrestling. I'm just trying to figure out the next step." It's all well and good to have heel heat, but not when it comes at the expense of logical storytelling. If your angle doesn't create intrigue for what happens next - and if the ability to theorize what happens next has no basis in how the specific events affect the characters involved - it's not a good story. Heel heat is fine, yes, but they have to have the end goal and the heel’s eventual comeuppance in mind. It can’t just be the heels trouncing everyone all the time.
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Post by mistery on Jul 28, 2020 21:44:08 GMT -5
The bit that really stood out to me: "I like to be angry about wrestling. I'm just trying to figure out the next step." It's all well and good to have heel heat, but not when it comes at the expense of logical storytelling. If your angle doesn't create intrigue for what happens next - and if the ability to theorize what happens next has no basis in how the specific events affect the characters involved - it's not a good story. The next step is “Asuka’s gonna want their f***ing heads on a stick for “retiring” her friend and making her have to give up her belt to save her”... Hopefully. I think we may need to break this whole thing down a bit and isolate what actually doesn’t make logical sense about it, because I feel like a lot of it is based on “How the f*** is this meant to lead to Bayley v Banks in time for SummerSlam?”. I can only assume that that’s NOT the plan now. Is it them feeding the footage of Bayley beating down Sane through the arena titantron (which is an issue beyond the context of this storyline)? Is it Asuka saving Sane only now and not at some other time that may have warranted it more? Like I said earlier, I got what they were going for, so it made a lot more sense to me than it has to others. The problem is that WWE is absolutely god awful at followups on this. There is a very good chance they just have Asuka fail to recapture the title because all they care about these days is booking to generate heat. But then fail to actually humble the heel, because they are obsessed with generating more heat. WWE should never be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to Asuka's booking. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. WWE fails to followup on pretty much every major setback Asuka faces. Or they make her look even worse. They are completely and utterly incapable of building interesting stories these days on the main roster. Because the only thing they like to do is piss everyone off, which results in viewers tuning out.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Jul 28, 2020 21:48:34 GMT -5
The ratings are tanking, theres no crowd reaction to gauge. It's just throw shit against the wall and when the liquid diarrhea pours down the wall into a puddle just throw your hands up and makesure you have enough content to cover 3 hours.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 28, 2020 22:03:28 GMT -5
The next step is “Asuka’s gonna want their f***ing heads on a stick for “retiring” her friend and making her have to give up her belt to save her”... Hopefully. I think we may need to break this whole thing down a bit and isolate what actually doesn’t make logical sense about it, because I feel like a lot of it is based on “How the f*** is this meant to lead to Bayley v Banks in time for SummerSlam?”. I can only assume that that’s NOT the plan now. Is it them feeding the footage of Bayley beating down Sane through the arena titantron (which is an issue beyond the context of this storyline)? Is it Asuka saving Sane only now and not at some other time that may have warranted it more? Like I said earlier, I got what they were going for, so it made a lot more sense to me than it has to others. The problem is that WWE is absolutely god awful at followups on this. There is a very good chance they just have Asuka fail to recapture the title because all they care about these days is booking to generate heat. But then fail to actually humble the heel, because they are obsessed with generating more heat. WWE should never be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to Asuka's booking. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. WWE fails to followup on pretty much every major setback Asuka faces. Or they make her look even worse. They are completely and utterly incapable of building interesting stories these days on the main roster. Because the only thing they like to do is piss everyone off, which results in viewers tuning out. I don’t blame anyone for not liking the story, or not expecting the story to land at a satisfying conclusion, but that doesn’t really effect whether the story itself actually makes logical sense or not, that’s all I’m saying.
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Post by mistery on Jul 28, 2020 22:27:54 GMT -5
The problem is that WWE is absolutely god awful at followups on this. There is a very good chance they just have Asuka fail to recapture the title because all they care about these days is booking to generate heat. But then fail to actually humble the heel, because they are obsessed with generating more heat. WWE should never be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to Asuka's booking. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. WWE fails to followup on pretty much every major setback Asuka faces. Or they make her look even worse. They are completely and utterly incapable of building interesting stories these days on the main roster. Because the only thing they like to do is piss everyone off, which results in viewers tuning out. I don’t blame anyone for not liking the story, or not expecting the story to land at a satisfying conclusion, but that doesn’t really effect whether the story itself actually makes logical sense or not, that’s all I’m saying. It doesn't even make sense from a logical perspective. Sasha is a Smackdown star. Who should be feuding with Bayley right now. But for god knows what reason, WWE thinks that holding off on the feud until Wrestlemania is the way to go, despite the fact that we may not have audiences back by then, or ones that will care. Because after last night, both women have turned into irredeemable heels. On top of them pulling the trigger on this feud like two years too late. They have lost a lot of goodwill among fans over the last 24 hours in regards to the handling of Sasha and Bayley. That's not even counting how bad Bayley's reign has gotten on Smackdown. She's ran over the entire division and is about to do it again for a second time.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 28, 2020 23:47:03 GMT -5
The problem is that WWE is absolutely god awful at followups on this. There is a very good chance they just have Asuka fail to recapture the title because all they care about these days is booking to generate heat. But then fail to actually humble the heel, because they are obsessed with generating more heat. WWE should never be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to Asuka's booking. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. WWE fails to followup on pretty much every major setback Asuka faces. Or they make her look even worse. They are completely and utterly incapable of building interesting stories these days on the main roster. Because the only thing they like to do is piss everyone off, which results in viewers tuning out. I don’t blame anyone for not liking the story, or not expecting the story to land at a satisfying conclusion, but that doesn’t really effect whether the story itself actually makes logical sense or not, that’s all I’m saying. Yea, there is a next step Whether you like it or not is irrelevant
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 29, 2020 0:01:19 GMT -5
Yup. It's why I think this whole two woman power trip thing is going to backfire horribly on WWE. Bryan and Dave mentioned during their RAW review last night that WWE is too busy booking for non-stop heat these days. They went on to mention that while the finish last night would work in the old 1960s-1990s eras, that no longer works in a modern generation. People want satisfying finishes with the face winning. Not whatever the hell they are doing with Sasha and Bayley running over the entire division and never facing any setbacks. In any normal promotion, this would set up Asuka getting her revenge on Sasha and Bayley. But this is WWE, and they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to the story. There's a decent chance they just screw over Asuka again because all they care about is heat. They've dropped the ball so many times even with easy layups like this. And for the people talking about how Sasha and Bayley have been good for ratings, they really haven't been over the past several weeks. They've suffered massive drops on both RAW and Smackdown for the most part. And the common demoninator is that Sasha and Bayley have been massively overexposed, and their gimmick has gone from being "heels you want to see beat" to just being channel changing. Its reminiscent of some of the issues of how the Authority was booked where it wasn't just how much Steph and HHH were showcased, but that the babyfaces were often presented as sad victims who just took the verbal and physical beatings.
Imagine if for the last week and a half Asuka was presented as a pissed off babyface on the hunt, chasing Bayley and Sasha from show to show to get her physical title back and both of them just barely escaping by the skin of their teeth, with even two on one attacks only barely slowing her down. If after Sasha's victory last night they both had to flee in their car and get the hell out of dodge because Asuka looks like she's legitimately going to be breaking limbs if she gets close. Its okay to have heat, but there needs to be a sense that the face's payback is not that far off. McMahon would often get one over on Austin in their feud which worked because Austin sold how pissed off he was and everyone knew Vince would pay badly for it and soon. Is there any confidence that Asuka will get any sort of revenge, let alone her title back? That she'll do anything past a token babyface attack we've already seen numerous times? I doubt it. Idk if you watched Smackdown but for the Go Home Show and Extreme Rules this is EXACTLY how they booked Nikki Cross vs Bayley. She went from having no fear and beind a psychopath that would do anything to take Bayley out, to being ho hum, down on her luck, and basically resigned to the fact she was going to lose to Bayley at Extreme Rules... which... she did! Who is this for? Who does it help? How does it get ANY fans interested?? It really is eerily similar to 2001's Two Man Power Trip and it's awful.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 29, 2020 0:03:45 GMT -5
I don’t blame anyone for not liking the story, or not expecting the story to land at a satisfying conclusion, but that doesn’t really effect whether the story itself actually makes logical sense or not, that’s all I’m saying. Yea, there is a next step Whether you like it or not is irrelevant I think RAW getting record low ratings every week at this point and tanking in the younger demos makes it pretty relevant on if fans like it or not... logical or having a next step or not, people aren't biting.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 29, 2020 0:04:43 GMT -5
Yea, there is a next step Whether you like it or not is irrelevant I think RAW getting record low ratings every week at this point and tanking in the younger demos makes it pretty relevant on if fans like it or not dude. Not for the focus of this thread when people are talking their is no story Also what's the demo for Raw?
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 29, 2020 0:06:43 GMT -5
I think RAW getting record low ratings every week at this point and tanking in the younger demos makes it pretty relevant on if fans like it or not dude. Not for the focus of this thread when people are talking their is no story Also what's the demo for Raw? If I recall for the viewership thread, not good, they had some demos barely beat Dynamite or flat out lose to them this week, their young viewership wasn't really good this week I remember seeing. Their Female Demo I think 12-34 also TANKED this week in hour three where this match happened, which you'd think for the women's division would be a big worry.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jul 29, 2020 0:12:43 GMT -5
The problem is that WWE is absolutely god awful at followups on this. There is a very good chance they just have Asuka fail to recapture the title because all they care about these days is booking to generate heat. But then fail to actually humble the heel, because they are obsessed with generating more heat. WWE should never be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to Asuka's booking. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. WWE fails to followup on pretty much every major setback Asuka faces. Or they make her look even worse. They are completely and utterly incapable of building interesting stories these days on the main roster. Because the only thing they like to do is piss everyone off, which results in viewers tuning out. I don’t blame anyone for not liking the story, or not expecting the story to land at a satisfying conclusion, but that doesn’t really effect whether the story itself actually makes logical sense or not, that’s all I’m saying. This entire thing is like if the Jericho/KO friendship just kept going, even with teases of dissolution, never ending in spectacular fashion in the Festival of Friendship.
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Post by Totorob101 on Jul 29, 2020 3:41:43 GMT -5
Bayley and Sasha are the top women without Charlotte and Becky around so its no surprise they are being pushed so hard. People want to see them, its not their fault the rest of the womens division bar Asuka is so poor. All the babyface women suck badly, Liv, Ruby, Naomi, Dana etc are a bunch of losers nobody cares about, Nikki and Alexa are about to break up and Tamina is Tamina. There is literally noone for Bayley and Sasha to feud with.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 29, 2020 4:01:32 GMT -5
Bayley and Sasha are the top women without Charlotte and Becky around so its no surprise they are being pushed so hard. People want to see them, its not their fault the rest of the womens division bar Asuka is so poor. All the babyface women suck badly, Liv, Ruby, Naomi, Dana etc are a bunch of losers nobody cares about, Nikki and Alexa are about to break up and Tamina is Tamina. There is literally noone for Bayley and Sasha to feud with. That’s the thing, the divisions are still very small even with EVERYONE there, let alone right now with people who are out hurt/sick/pregnant. RAW has 13 women assigned to it now Sane has gone home, and right now SIX of them are absent. Lynch is pregnant, Flair is out for medical reasons, Natalya, Morgan and Lana all probably had the COVID and there’s a big question mark over Kay now. That leaves Asuka, Baszler, Belair, Jax, Riott and Royce, with Vega in a manager role. SmackDown has 11 talents on their books, with two of them possibly having had the COVID (Rose and Deville) and another having been absent for nearly three months now (Carmella). This leaves Bayley, Banks, Bliss, Cross, Naomi, Evans, Brooke and Tamina. With WWE’s utter refusal to use outside enhancement talents, this means that, ostensibly, they have try and keep a champion strong, a challenger strong and maybe the next two or three challengers strong, by beating... who, exactly?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jul 29, 2020 4:55:38 GMT -5
Bayley and Sasha are the top women without Charlotte and Becky around so its no surprise they are being pushed so hard. People want to see them, its not their fault the rest of the womens division bar Asuka is so poor. All the babyface women suck badly, Liv, Ruby, Naomi, Dana etc are a bunch of losers nobody cares about, Nikki and Alexa are about to break up and Tamina is Tamina. There is literally noone for Bayley and Sasha to feud with. That’s the thing, the divisions are still very small even with EVERYONE there, let alone right now with people who are out hurt/sick/pregnant. RAW has 13 women assigned to it now Sane has gone home, and right now SIX of them are absent. Lynch is pregnant, Flair is out for medical reasons, Natalya, Morgan and Lana all probably had the COVID and there’s a big question mark over Kay now. That leaves Asuka, Baszler, Belair, Jax, Riott and Royce, with Vega in a manager role. SmackDown has 11 talents on their books, with two of them possibly having had the COVID (Rose and Deville) and another having been absent for nearly three months now (Carmella). This leaves Bayley, Banks, Bliss, Cross, Naomi, Evans, Brooke and Tamina. With WWE’s utter refusal to use outside enhancement talents, this means that, ostensibly, they have try and keep a champion strong, a challenger strong and maybe the next two or three challengers strong, by beating... who, exactly? So use enhancement talents. Just because they've chosen to not do something that would help them doesn't make their shittier solution valid. They have so many other women on the payroll, performance center trainees they could use, tons of options. Yes the situation right now is difficult, no their decision to fix none of it doesn't make putting on weak shows worthwhile, and it's going to have insane long-term effects as they trash everyone else in the division to keep these two big. These bottlenecks last well beyond the time they started in and the short-term booking is putting zero thought into that.
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Post by eJm on Jul 29, 2020 5:15:11 GMT -5
That’s the thing, the divisions are still very small even with EVERYONE there, let alone right now with people who are out hurt/sick/pregnant. RAW has 13 women assigned to it now Sane has gone home, and right now SIX of them are absent. Lynch is pregnant, Flair is out for medical reasons, Natalya, Morgan and Lana all probably had the COVID and there’s a big question mark over Kay now. That leaves Asuka, Baszler, Belair, Jax, Riott and Royce, with Vega in a manager role. SmackDown has 11 talents on their books, with two of them possibly having had the COVID (Rose and Deville) and another having been absent for nearly three months now (Carmella). This leaves Bayley, Banks, Bliss, Cross, Naomi, Evans, Brooke and Tamina. With WWE’s utter refusal to use outside enhancement talents, this means that, ostensibly, they have try and keep a champion strong, a challenger strong and maybe the next two or three challengers strong, by beating... who, exactly? So use enhancement talents. Just because they've chosen to not do something that would help them doesn't make their shittier solution valid. They have so many other women on the payroll, performance center trainees they could use, tons of options. Yes the situation right now is difficult, no their decision to fix none of it doesn't make putting on weak shows worthwhile, and it's going to have insane long-term effects as they trash everyone else in the division to keep these two big. These bottlenecks last well beyond the time they started in and the short-term booking is putting zero thought into that. Also it's not like they haven't done this stuff recently. Hell, a couple of Nia's return matches were against enhancement talent. So they can do it...they just don't want to. If they're going to still have shows, they're likely still people around in Florida they can use who trained at the school to use. We know this because, until now, they didn't stop signing people. This, along with many, MANY, other problems are just chickens coming home to roost with this stuff. The signs were well before this pandemic and even well before the last decade was halfway done.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 29, 2020 5:35:07 GMT -5
Bayley and Sasha are the top women without Charlotte and Becky around so its no surprise they are being pushed so hard. People want to see them, its not their fault the rest of the womens division bar Asuka is so poor. All the babyface women suck badly, Liv, Ruby, Naomi, Dana etc are a bunch of losers nobody cares about, Nikki and Alexa are about to break up and Tamina is Tamina. There is literally noone for Bayley and Sasha to feud with. Almost like they should have built people up rather than make them into losers? Naomi literally has a hashtag to get her a push. There are no crowds, viewership is falling, it's a sign that at least 1 person has a fanbase, whether you personally like them or not, there's support so run with it. Ruby is fantastic but has been buried as a joke heel for years, a face turn could have been a big change, stepping off point to use her, instead it's a damp squib.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 29, 2020 5:55:17 GMT -5
So use enhancement talents. Just because they've chosen to not do something that would help them doesn't make their shittier solution valid. They have so many other women on the payroll, performance center trainees they could use, tons of options. Yes the situation right now is difficult, no their decision to fix none of it doesn't make putting on weak shows worthwhile, and it's going to have insane long-term effects as they trash everyone else in the division to keep these two big. These bottlenecks last well beyond the time they started in and the short-term booking is putting zero thought into that. Also it's not like they haven't done this stuff recently. Hell, a couple of Nia's return matches were against enhancement talent. So they can do it...they just don't want to. If they're going to still have shows, they're likely still people around in Florida they can use who trained at the school to use. We know this because, until now, they didn't stop signing people. This, along with many, MANY, other problems are just chickens coming home to roost with this stuff. The signs were well before this pandemic and even well before the last decade was halfway done. It’s like I said in one of the ratings threads recently... There’s so much that needs to be fixed, you just don’t know where to start first. All I know is that fans are tuning out in droves, many of those that remain have no goodwill in them to trust WWE to tell ANY story or book ANY match whatsoever without shitting the bed and any potential solution there may be isn’t going to be a quick fix that will bring a million viewers back to SmackDown and/or RAW next week. The entire system has basically gotta be torn down and rebuilt. Like. I try so hard to keep at least SOME kind of open mind and not poo-poo everything once and for all whenever I don’t like a story direction, if only to justify to myself why I’m still keeping watch of it (I’m not even sure it’s my primary interest at this point), but what am I getting out of this other than stress from trying to figure out solutions to problems I have nothing to do with?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jul 29, 2020 6:30:10 GMT -5
So use enhancement talents. Just because they've chosen to not do something that would help them doesn't make their shittier solution valid. They have so many other women on the payroll, performance center trainees they could use, tons of options. Yes the situation right now is difficult, no their decision to fix none of it doesn't make putting on weak shows worthwhile, and it's going to have insane long-term effects as they trash everyone else in the division to keep these two big. These bottlenecks last well beyond the time they started in and the short-term booking is putting zero thought into that. Also it's not like they haven't done this stuff recently. Hell, a couple of Nia's return matches were against enhancement talent. So they can do it...they just don't want to. If they're going to still have shows, they're likely still people around in Florida they can use who trained at the school to use. We know this because, until now, they didn't stop signing people. This, along with many, MANY, other problems are just chickens coming home to roost with this stuff. The signs were well before this pandemic and even well before the last decade was halfway done. WWE can't maintain long-term planning in a good dayu and they burn so readily through everything that trhey don't consider how much it'll hurt. They don't hotshot book one thing, they hotshot the whole show, all the time, and wonder why it's making people tune out.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 29, 2020 6:43:30 GMT -5
I think RAW getting record low ratings every week at this point and tanking in the younger demos makes it pretty relevant on if fans like it or not dude. Not for the focus of this thread when people are talking their is no story Also what's the demo for Raw? The key demo is still significantly higher than NXT and AEW. All 3 hours are usually in the top 6-7 shows on Monday night.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 29, 2020 6:53:47 GMT -5
Bayley and Sasha are the top women without Charlotte and Becky around so its no surprise they are being pushed so hard. People want to see them, its not their fault the rest of the womens division bar Asuka is so poor. All the babyface women suck badly, Liv, Ruby, Naomi, Dana etc are a bunch of losers nobody cares about, Nikki and Alexa are about to break up and Tamina is Tamina. There is literally noone for Bayley and Sasha to feud with. It's almost like they should have tried building up the division instead of having the same 4 women run train on everyone over the last few years.
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