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Post by Cyno on Nov 24, 2020 13:27:58 GMT -5
Ever since I started watching NJPW and they let the refs have a lot more leeway in officiating the matches, I've been a fan of that approach versus WWE's "be strictly by the book no matter what" approach.
Though generally I like the Japanese 20 count way more than the Western 10 count.
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67 more
King Koopa
He's just a Sexy Kurt
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Post by 67 more on Nov 24, 2020 15:23:15 GMT -5
Ever since I started watching NJPW and they let the refs have a lot more leeway in officiating the matches, I've been a fan of that approach versus WWE's "be strictly by the book no matter what" approach. Though generally I like the Japanese 20 count way more than the Western 10 count.
I like with NJPW's countouts is that there seems to be a uniform guideline of let the wrestlers slug it out and then when they stop or it's clear that they're not going to stop anytime soon, then start the countout, because it's consistent, logical storytelling. Do one or the other in your company, because you can't do both. It's like these instant illegal man got involved DQs that happened a few times this year in WWE, despite that happening in pretty much every single tag match since the dawn of time, it looked ridiculous.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 24, 2020 17:54:16 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, if you got a tag team match where they nearly all got counted out and a referee who didn't count them out, that's five people failing at their job simultaneously at least.
It's also probably on the directors and producers for not having better control of the segment.
This is live TV, mistakes happen, I'm not an idiot. But you realise how preposterously bush league the supposed Big Leagues of wrestling is when you see how often mistakes like this happen. WWE's production staff are sometimes first rate, and sometimes would have been fired instantly if they worked anywhere else.
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Post by lildude8218 on Nov 24, 2020 17:57:41 GMT -5
I got on Bryce for this at the Chikara show where Juan beat Ultramantis for the belt. The arena was an old Jai Alai place so they fought up to the top of the steps for what felt like forever. As they were walking back I said to Bryce, "what is that now? 12?" and he said "something like that..."
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,058
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Post by repomark on Nov 25, 2020 14:08:02 GMT -5
I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous to be honest. There is a planned finish so it should be everyone’s job (including the ref) to get to the planned finish - and paper over the cracks if mistakes are made. They are not real officials but actors playing a part. It would be like if the guy who played the referee in Rocky counted Sylvester Stallone down for a ten count because he didn’t get up fast enough and then having to completely revise the script on the fly because of it. Rocky isn't a live performance, though. If they showed the ref, however, completely stop counting so that Rocky could get up, it would either suggest that the ref is biased and/or shit and would taint Rocky's victory ultimately. Wrestling doesn't have the luxury of retakes and edits usually so you need your refs to maintain the rules to have an internal logic. We know this shit isn't real but if refs just do whatever the f*** to fit the end result, that's shit storytelling. I take your point about Rocky not being a live performance, but I think the analogy still holds up. If there was ever a Rocky musical on Broadway then this would address your point. In my view it’s worse story telling to land on a completely different ending than the intended one. It just seems absolutely bonkers to me in a scripted performance. In conclusion: there should be a Rocky musical on Broadway.
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Nov 25, 2020 14:20:01 GMT -5
Counting the dudes out when you totally aren't supposed to is goofy to me cause it's not even really consistent among refs so when one actually goes like This Shit's Real To Me and just counts them out it's like...wtf lol
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Post by mrpeacock on Nov 25, 2020 14:52:11 GMT -5
Rocky isn't a live performance, though. If they showed the ref, however, completely stop counting so that Rocky could get up, it would either suggest that the ref is biased and/or shit and would taint Rocky's victory ultimately. Wrestling doesn't have the luxury of retakes and edits usually so you need your refs to maintain the rules to have an internal logic. We know this shit isn't real but if refs just do whatever the f*** to fit the end result, that's shit storytelling. I take your point about Rocky not being a live performance, but I think the analogy still holds up. If there was ever a Rocky musical on Broadway then this would address your point. In my view it’s worse story telling to land on a completely different ending than the intended one. It just seems absolutely bonkers to me in a scripted performance. In conclusion: there should be a Rocky musical on Broadway. Well you’re a couple years too late ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/3050802d8b1dfd5a024d935b9633f304.jpg)
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,058
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Post by repomark on Nov 25, 2020 15:58:05 GMT -5
I take your point about Rocky not being a live performance, but I think the analogy still holds up. If there was ever a Rocky musical on Broadway then this would address your point. In my view it’s worse story telling to land on a completely different ending than the intended one. It just seems absolutely bonkers to me in a scripted performance. In conclusion: there should be a Rocky musical on Broadway. Well you’re a couple years too late ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/3050802d8b1dfd5a024d935b9633f304.jpg) They did?!!! That’s amazing lol. Made my day 😂
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Nov 25, 2020 16:33:09 GMT -5
Counting the dudes out when you totally aren't supposed to is goofy to me cause it's not even really consistent among refs so when one actually goes like This Shit's Real To Me and just counts them out it's like...wtf lol Especially since it's even ingrained into the culture that nobody really wants matches to end in countouts except cowardly heels (and Lana if she's the sole survivor), so nobody would really bat an eye at a referee breaking the count if he knew the participants needed an extra second to get back in the ring.
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Nov 27, 2020 9:53:57 GMT -5
I just happened to be listening to an old Jericho podcast with Marty Elias and he says at Mania 25 vs HBK, Undertaker told him that if he didn't make it back to the ring after the big dive that he wanted him to count him out for real. I don't know why but there you have it. I guess the wrestlers are into the idea too.
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Post by cassonova on Nov 27, 2020 12:15:46 GMT -5
I actually don't mind it. We had a similar situation pop up last year (I think) with Jack Gallagher and Chad Gable. I feel like rule enforcement is something that is needed in universe to add to the storytelling in the match itself. The issue is the lack of consistency with how the counts (and other rules) are handled. There is definitely a discrepancy in the ten counts...one "this is 'real' count" and one "let's brawl and dive outside" count. Just decide the amount of time for warnings prior to the count and then start the count. If you need more than the ten count, either break the count or switch the count to twenty, which is increasingly common.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 27, 2020 14:12:35 GMT -5
Counting the dudes out when you totally aren't supposed to is goofy to me cause it's not even really consistent among refs so when one actually goes like This Shit's Real To Me and just counts them out it's like...wtf lol Especially since it's even ingrained into the culture that nobody really wants matches to end in countouts except cowardly heels (and Lana if she's the sole survivor), so nobody would really bat an eye at a referee breaking the count if he knew the participants needed an extra second to get back in the ring. It was technically a heel vs heel match, but Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Bad Luck Fale from one of the G1 tournament matches last year sticks out as a satisfying, clever way to have a match end in a countout. Sabre was the more face-ish of the two and beat Fale by having a big brawl with him outside the ring and into the stands. Then when the count got really close to 20, Sabre used his far superior speed to run back to the ring and Fale (who is quite slow) got counted out.
Granted, that's not something you can do often before it becomes old hat. But I always appreciated the use of a usually unsatisfying way to end a match being incorporated into the its storytelling without feeling like a copout.
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67 more
King Koopa
He's just a Sexy Kurt
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Post by 67 more on Nov 27, 2020 16:55:45 GMT -5
Especially since it's even ingrained into the culture that nobody really wants matches to end in countouts except cowardly heels (and Lana if she's the sole survivor), so nobody would really bat an eye at a referee breaking the count if he knew the participants needed an extra second to get back in the ring. It was technically a heel vs heel match, but Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Bad Luck Fale from one of the G1 tournament matches last year sticks out as a satisfying, clever way to have a match end in a countout. Sabre was the more face-ish of the two and beat Fale by having a big brawl with him outside the ring and into the stands. Then when the count got really close to 20, Sabre used his far superior speed to run back to the ring and Fale (who is quite slow) got counted out.
Granted, that's not something you can do often before it becomes old hat. But I always appreciated the use of a usually unsatisfying way to end a match being incorporated into the its storytelling without feeling like a copout.
I liked in the NJC this year Hiromu beat Yano by countout by tying him up, putting him in a lift, hitting the down button and then running back to the ring. Similarly, Yano tying ZSJ's feet in the guardrail by his shoelaces at Power Struggle. NJPW are so good at coming up with creative countout finishes.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Nov 27, 2020 17:40:04 GMT -5
I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous to be honest. There is a planned finish so it should be everyone’s job (including the ref) to get to the planned finish - and paper over the cracks if mistakes are made. They are not real officials but actors playing a part. Yeah, I’m on this side. The whole thing is a performance; why f*** everything up for the sake of ultra realism? Instead of a little botch with a count being off, you end up with a big botch where the end of a match is completely changed and everyone looks confused. It’s just so utterly pointless. I haven’t seen much AEW, but when I tuned in to one of the earliest shows one of the commentators mentioned that the referee was using their discretion to not count out the competitors and end the match prematurely. I thought it was such a good little detail that they explained why the match wasn’t ending, and that rules in wrestling can be a bit flexible. I mean, after all the things I’ve seen in wrestling over the years, I really, really, REALLY don’t care if the referee is a little slow on the count out and I don’t want ultra realism if it f***s everything up.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 27, 2020 18:14:33 GMT -5
I haven’t seen much AEW, but when I tuned in to one of the earliest shows one of the commentators mentioned that the referee was using their discretion to not count out the competitors and end the match prematurely. I thought it was such a good little detail that they explained why the match wasn’t ending, and that rules in wrestling can be a bit flexible. That's funny because all of us were praising this at first, these days we're wondering why they bother having referees at all, especially in tag matches.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 27, 2020 19:50:21 GMT -5
I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous to be honest. There is a planned finish so it should be everyone’s job (including the ref) to get to the planned finish - and paper over the cracks if mistakes are made. They are not real officials but actors playing a part. Yeah, I’m on this side. The whole thing is a performance; why f*** everything up for the sake of ultra realism? Instead of a little botch with a count being off, you end up with a big botch where the end of a match is completely changed and everyone looks confused. It’s just so utterly pointless. I haven’t seen much AEW, but when I tuned in to one of the earliest shows one of the commentators mentioned that the referee was using their discretion to not count out the competitors and end the match prematurely. I thought it was such a good little detail that they explained why the match wasn’t ending, and that rules in wrestling can be a bit flexible. I mean, after all the things I’ve seen in wrestling over the years, I really, really, REALLY don’t care if the referee is a little slow on the count out and I don’t want ultra realism if it f***s everything up. Because it takes me out of the match. That’s why they don’t leave the outtakes in the movie. I think it was during Sasha and Bayley at Survivor Series, they were selling outside the ring and the ref count was at 8, when they both popped up and ran like hell to beat the 10 count. I should never become aware what I’m watching is only a performance and it is what is killing wrestling. The “it’s all just haha” is awful. That’s why Airplane! Works. The characters aren’t being funny on purpose. They’re being serious about the nonsense. It’s why shit like Scary Movie 76 sucks. The characters winking at the camera and mugging it up just takes the audience out of it.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 27, 2020 19:54:35 GMT -5
I haven’t seen much AEW, but when I tuned in to one of the earliest shows one of the commentators mentioned that the referee was using their discretion to not count out the competitors and end the match prematurely. I thought it was such a good little detail that they explained why the match wasn’t ending, and that rules in wrestling can be a bit flexible. That's funny because all of us were praising this at first, these days we're wondering why they bother having referees at all, especially in tag matches. I don't remember much of anyone wondering that outside a couple of people. If anything, the refs are necessary for checking on the safety of the wrestlers and they should have more officials for the more chaotic multi-person matches.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Nov 27, 2020 21:02:26 GMT -5
There's a difference between someone not kicking out and people not getting in the ring for a ten count.
As a promoter, if someone doesn't kick out in time and the ref just stops i'm pissed, that looks stupid and ruins the entire premise of your event. That's where a referee is so important though, checking the wrestler after EVERY move to make sure they've not been knocked silly and will miss the count.
A ten count, much like throwing someone into stairs or whatever, is a ref's discretion in kayfabe. You get to 9 and they're still f***ing about outside? Then go out and tell them to get back in or you'll count them out. That looks legit while also reminding the wrestlers.
Now of course, if they are told to just count in their earpiece then it's not their fault.
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Post by eJm on Nov 27, 2020 21:15:08 GMT -5
There's a difference between someone not kicking out and people not getting in the ring for a ten count. As a promoter, if someone doesn't kick out in time and the ref just stops i'm pissed, that looks stupid and ruins the entire premise of your event. That's where a referee is so important though, checking the wrestler after EVERY move to make sure they've not been knocked silly and will miss the count. A ten count, much like throwing someone into stairs or whatever, is a ref's discretion in kayfabe. You get to 9 and they're still f***ing about outside? Then go out and tell them to get back in or you'll count them out. That looks legit while also reminding the wrestlers. Now of course, if they are told to just count in their earpiece then it's not their fault. This all makes sense and, again, comes down really to how much the promotions trusts their officials to make the decisions if need be. Again, if your referee counts both teams out when one was supposed to come back in, own that. Plan around it. If you immediately discredit what happened, you’re making the official look bad and you put a spotlight right on that mistake. It makes everyone look dumb.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 28, 2020 5:14:59 GMT -5
That's funny because all of us were praising this at first, these days we're wondering why they bother having referees at all, especially in tag matches. I don't remember much of anyone wondering that outside a couple of people. If anything, the refs are necessary for checking on the safety of the wrestlers and they should have more officials for the more chaotic multi-person matches. I was more flippantly referring to the fact that the AEW refs enforce basically nothing
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