The Refs count to 10 no matter what...

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

This is an unwritten rule at least in the realm of WWE where a referee always does a normal 10 count and does not stop, because "If you do it too slow or stop without an actual reset within the rules, it looks too fake"

So the refs count to 10 no matter what's going on and no matter how it might f*** up a match, and we saw that tonight in New Day vs Hurt Business

The ironic thing is the double countout would have been the better finish over Hurt Business losing clean, again, for no reason, but yeesh that was bad. Not only did everyone look like a deer in headlights when they didn't beat the count, but New Day ran off like cowards and looked like heels in the process, and then proceeded to still win. Good save by MVP though in restarting the match, if anything. The momentum and pace of the match was also ruined, and stuff became sloppy and awkward until the end.

I feel like this unwritten rule should probably be taken into some editing. The ref should make it clearer the 10 is coming or the wrestlers should be given a more clear indication it's coming in case something has gone wrong or miscommunication happens. Because I'll tell you what, a slower count to let the wrestlers back in the ring, is much less of a fake looking botch then when they don't...  
 

[mrpeacock]

I don’t mind it. One of my pet peeves is guys endlessly being outside without even trying to break the count. Gotta give the refs some authority. It’s why they get a bonus when they count a three when it isn’t the finish. It’s not on the refs it’s on the wrestlers to follow the rules.

[67 more]

There's nothing I hate more than obviously fudged counts. The ref's count is what tells the wrestlers to get back into the ring. If you cant have a match that adheres to the "rules", then the match has failed.

[BRAINFADE]

It actually happened in the NOAH main event on Sunday. Go Shiozaki was apparently knocked loopy at one point and looked like he couldn't answer the twenty count, so the ref had to stop the count. It was probably NOAH's biggest match of the year and Shiozaki was supposed to retain the title, so the ref was put in an incredibly tough spot.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Nov 23, 2020 23:55:41 GMT -5 mrpeacock said:

I don’t mind it. One of my pet peeves is guys endlessly being outside without even trying to break the count. Gotta give the refs some authority. It’s why they get a bonus when they count a three when it isn’t the finish. It’s not on the refs it’s on the wrestlers to follow the rules.

I'm pretty sure they stopped the ref's bonus practice a long time ago because it caused incidents where wrestlers were accusing refs of ruining matches in order to collect bonuses, or as Ted DiBiase Jr. put it, "that referee tried to f*** ON ME!"

[Bo Rida]

The lack of consistency bugs me, especially how reluctant they are to start a 10 count when both are down in the ring.
Some matches (think Hhh at his most over dramatic) have more time taken by people laying around than a last man standing match.

[67 more]

Nov 24, 2020 4:18:10 GMT -5 BRAINFADE said:

It actually happened in the NOAH main event on Sunday. Go Shiozaki was apparently knocked loopy at one point and looked like he couldn't answer the twenty count, so the ref had to stop the count. It was probably NOAH's biggest match of the year and Shiozaki was supposed to retain the title, so the ref was put in an incredibly tough spot.

I know that situation sucks, but it's better for the wrestler if the match is stopped in that case, whether it be by ref stoppage or the countout.

[msc]

It's a scripted show. If the match isn't supposed to end on a countout, don't count them out...

Especially when in the context of the show it was a case of timing being off by miliseconds.

[Venti]

The only times I'm okay with refs taking extra time with the ten count is in big main events. Same situation when they're slightly more lenient with disqualification. Mainly if the commentary team acknowledges that "no one wants to see this match end in a count out. The ref is giving these guys a little more leeway
"

I swear I've seen them do that a few times in 90s matches.

But otherwise, it's more realistic when 99% of the time, they follow the rules. It's phony when the refs have to break the rules so the match can keep going. They can only make excuses for it when it's a very big match.

[mrtuesday]

I'm all for the refs doing this.

If someone forgets to kick out? Not the ref's problem.

Refuse to let go of the hold whole in the ropes? Not the ref's problem.

Stay outside? Not the ref's problem.

The refs shouldn't be punished because the wrestlers aren't paying attention.

[Push R Truth]

I'm in the boat where it's not the ref's damn problem when the wrestlers that have all the control over what's happening screw it up.

[cornettesracket]

I’m good with the referee counting to ten when wrestlers are on the outside and when there’s a pin. Why should the referee look stupid when wrestlers forget where they are or where their shoulders are ? I hate the whole wrestlers outside the ring and the ref is inside not counting. If the ref is outside or in the crowd like it used to happen then okay but if in the ring can only try so much to get the wrestlers to remember where they are.

[mrtuesday]

Nov 24, 2020 9:14:29 GMT -5 cornettesracket said:

If the ref is outside or in the crowd like it used to happen then okay but if in the ring can only try so much to get the wrestlers to remember where they are.

Yes. This. If the ref doesn't want to count them out, he can leave the ring and yell "GET BACK IN THE RING" at them.

And yes restart the count after that.

[repomark]

I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous to be honest. There is a planned finish so it should be everyone’s job (including the ref) to get to the planned finish - and paper over the cracks if mistakes are made. They are not real officials but actors playing a part.

It would be like if the guy who played the referee in Rocky counted Sylvester Stallone down for a ten count because he didn’t get up fast enough and then having to completely revise the script on the fly because of it.

[evilhomer]

I like the idea of the ref having some leeway with the rules. Kind of like in hockey where they allow some questionable hits to keep the game flowing and create, in my opinion, a more enjoyable game. Give the refs the discretion to allow a match to keep going, let the shout out "get back in the ring or I'm counting you out" and have it acknowledged by the announcers that the ref is using his discretion because he wants to see these guys keep beating the hell out of each other.

[eJm]

When I was training, something we were taught is that you have to treat it like it's real so if you count a pinfall and the dude doesn't kick out, that's not your fault, you're doing your job. It's weird in some ways

Now having said that what seemed to be the problem with Hurt Business/New Day was that they didn't seem to give the ref's decision credence in kayfabe. As in, if the ref counted both teams out, you shouldn't treat it like Hurt Business won by count-out when they clearly didn't. You can still do the angle you went with but don't try and make the people around the official either not take his decision seriously or act like something that happened didn't and treat your audience like idiots.

For the record, this also should go into giving officials more authority to stop matches if stuff's gone wrong and someone's seriously hurt and not chew them out for it, which seems like something that happens in WWE in particular and needs to be sorted out.

[67 more]

Nov 24, 2020 11:01:28 GMT -5 repomark said:

I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous to be honest. There is a planned finish so it should be everyone’s job (including the ref) to get to the planned finish - and paper over the cracks if mistakes are made. They are not real officials but actors playing a part.

It would be like if the guy who played the referee in Rocky counted Sylvester Stallone down for a ten count because he didn’t get up fast enough and then having to completely revise the script on the fly because of it.

Rocky isn't a live performance, though. If they showed the ref, however, completely stop counting so that Rocky could get up, it would either suggest that the ref is biased and/or shit and would taint Rocky's victory ultimately.

Wrestling doesn't have the luxury of retakes and edits usually so you need your refs to maintain the rules to have an internal logic. We know this shit isn't real but if refs just do whatever the f*** to fit the end result, that's shit storytelling.

[drjayphd (feat. Pitbull)]

Nov 24, 2020 8:40:35 GMT -5 msc said:

It's a scripted show. If the match isn't supposed to end on a countout, don't count them out...

Especially when in the context of the show it was a case of timing being off by miliseconds.

By the same token, isn't it on the wrestlers to be in their spots when they're supposed to? If they're not paying attention to their marks, that's on them, not the ref. Having said that, though, the refs should have the latitude to get out of the ring, tell them to get back and restart the count, especially in a significant match like a title shot.

[SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids]

Nov 23, 2020 23:48:27 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

I feel like this unwritten rule should probably be taken into some editing. The ref should make it clearer the 10 is coming or the wrestlers should be given a more clear indication it's coming in case something has gone wrong or miscommunication happens. Because I'll tell you what, a slower count to let the wrestlers back in the ring, is much less of a fake looking botch then when they don't...  
 

Not to be snarky, but how much clearer can counting to ten be other than counting to ten?

Refs used to know how to stall better back in the day. They knew how to pull it back in if it went sideways. The problem is, nowadays, everyone with Vince plugged into them is so afraid to make a mistake and risk getting fired that no one does any thing.

[msc]

Nov 24, 2020 13:17:51 GMT -5 drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) said:

Nov 24, 2020 8:40:35 GMT -5 msc said:

It's a scripted show. If the match isn't supposed to end on a countout, don't count them out...

Especially when in the context of the show it was a case of timing being off by miliseconds.

By the same token, isn't it on the wrestlers to be in their spots when they're supposed to? If they're not paying attention to their marks, that's on them, not the ref. Having said that, though, the refs should have the latitude to get out of the ring, tell them to get back and restart the count, especially in a significant match like a title shot.

They did the spot as booked, they got back into the ring less than a second later. There's times to use the famous Titan Timing and this was one of them.