mc74
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Post by mc74 on Jun 9, 2021 8:25:43 GMT -5
As already said in the other thread, the biggest issue here is WWE's inability to develop stars and put out compelling storylines. I mean, it's pretty hard for anyone in WWE to reach the next level when they get the legs cut out from under them before they can even get off the ground.
AEW on the other hand, is a good example of what happens when talent is handled properly. There's a lot of emphasis on in-ring performances, but this is all backed up for the most part with good storytelling. The wrestlers are presented as they should be, and because of that, they feel like a bigger deal.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 9, 2021 9:26:15 GMT -5
Wherein someone suggests Hogan, Bruno and Steve Austin weren't good workers... Austin held his own against Benoit, Steamboat, The Harts, HBK, Bobby Eaton, Barry Windham, Muta, Arn Anderson, Ric Flair & Kurt Angle. Dude busted his ass and has some legitimate classic matches up and down the card. And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working
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Post by eJm on Jun 9, 2021 9:29:16 GMT -5
Austin held his own against Benoit, Steamboat, The Harts, HBK, Bobby Eaton, Barry Windham, Muta, Arn Anderson, Ric Flair & Kurt Angle. Dude busted his ass and has some legitimate classic matches up and down the card. And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working And it should be noted, that a big part of his WCW career was him playing a egotistical, cocky heel who had great ability but wasn’t afraid to get dirty when needed. Like, watch the promo he did when he was playing Col Rob Parker managing “Stunning Steve” before his match against Medusa from WCW, dude got the character aspect big time.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Jun 9, 2021 9:36:35 GMT -5
So... Are we going to pretend that Diesel was a huge workrate guy, and that's why business was down when he was champ? I mean, he did sell out Madison Square Garden with more than the actual attendance of Madison Square Garden so I guess checkmate to us? Remember, the proof is in the doll/pudding.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 9, 2021 9:38:13 GMT -5
And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working And it should be noted, that a big part of his WCW career was him playing a egotistical, cocky heel who had great ability but wasn’t afraid to get dirty when needed. Like, watch the promo he did when he was playing Col Rob Parker managing “Stunning Steve” before his match against Medusa from WCW, dude got the character aspect big time. Yeah, like Steve is harsher on his "Stunning Steve" character than he should be but his ability and that character was good enough to make him world champ. He would have had to reinvent the character at some point which he was forced to when fired (and going bald) but you can see a guy with ability that WCW mismanaged.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Jun 9, 2021 9:45:22 GMT -5
And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working And it should be noted, that a big part of his WCW career was him playing a egotistical, cocky heel who had great ability but wasn’t afraid to get dirty when needed. Like, watch the promo he did when he was playing Col Rob Parker managing “Stunning Steve” before his match against Medusa from WCW, dude got the character aspect big time. WCW Austin is great in watching how he grew from that cocky prick World TV Champion that bleeds all over the place in War Games, grows into his role with Pillman then around his 2nd Steamboat feud over the US Belt, you see a little of Stone Cold. And funny enough, against Bret, you see the last bit of Stunning Steve.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Jun 9, 2021 9:56:58 GMT -5
And it should be noted, that a big part of his WCW career was him playing a egotistical, cocky heel who had great ability but wasn’t afraid to get dirty when needed. Like, watch the promo he did when he was playing Col Rob Parker managing “Stunning Steve” before his match against Medusa from WCW, dude got the character aspect big time. Yeah, like Steve is harsher on his "Stunning Steve" character than he should be but his ability and that character was good enough to make him world champ. He would have had to reinvent the character at some point which he was forced to when fired (and going bald) but you can see a guy with ability that WCW mismanaged. I just realized that Austin, known as that babyface for whipping Vince's ass learned directly 4 damn good heels. Zybsko, who betrayed Bruno and wanted people to see him killed because he was that summabitch who betrayed Bruno, Rick Rude who can piss off a crowd like few could, Bobby Eaton who was apart of one of greatest heel tag teams ever and Arn Anderson, Original 4 Horseman.
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Jun 9, 2021 10:01:25 GMT -5
Austin held his own against Benoit, Steamboat, The Harts, HBK, Bobby Eaton, Barry Windham, Muta, Arn Anderson, Ric Flair & Kurt Angle. Dude busted his ass and has some legitimate classic matches up and down the card. And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working I saw his matches before the knee and neck injuries. The man could really go in the ring, and it makes you wonder what could've been hadn't he gotten injured.
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Post by eJm on Jun 9, 2021 10:07:40 GMT -5
And Austin by definition was a "mechanic" before the knee and neck injuries made him into a brawler but he could still work Doing countless moves isn't the only definition of working I saw his matches before the knee and neck injuries. The man could really go in the ring, and it makes you wonder what could've been hadn't he gotten injured. It's a weird scenario for sure because, like, it wasn't like he wasn't over or people didn't love him but him basically coming back the night after his neck broke (which, and it can't be said enough as a general thing, don't f***ing do that anyone) did add more legend to his rise when he came back for more and wanted to beat everyone's ass. That's not to say things couldn't have happened the way it did, you could argue it might have given a bit more substance to some of the bigger matches like his feud with the Undertaker and such.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 9, 2021 10:10:33 GMT -5
I agree with the OP. I really think the the casual audience prefers to watch WWE style programming over the well critically acclaimed promotions. I think people are more interested in watching someone like The Miz over someone like an Okada or WALTER. My stance is WWE’s thought processes on who to push strongly can be rationalized and understood once we put biases away. BUT, their execution, booking, and writing has been boring and subpar for quite some time.
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Post by eJm on Jun 9, 2021 10:15:18 GMT -5
I think people are more interested in watching someone like The Miz over someone like an Okada or WALTER. Like, I'm not trying to say either of the other men would be watched more (and needs to be said again, do a survey on it because us guessing who people want to watch pretty much means nothing) but at this point in time, if people wanted to watch The Miz...they'd be tuning in to watch The Miz. That's no disrespect to the guy and I don't even think it's his fault stuff is where it is but...there's not really any numbers for that.
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Post by The Ichi on Jun 9, 2021 10:16:10 GMT -5
Ah, I guess we were due another "the failing ratings are the fault of the wrestlers and not the writing team" thread.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jun 9, 2021 10:18:58 GMT -5
To clear this up, by workrate I mean technical skill. Being a great worker to me is completely different. Example being a guy like Benoit had incredible workrate but was an average worker because of his other shortcomings. We need more background, more story, more intrigue with characters. I agree it's mostly the creative team or Vince's fault. Workrate isn't just the moves, friend, it's always referred to the whole package, including things like selling and ring psychology.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 10:19:31 GMT -5
You can't push a magical button to create interesting characters.
"We need to hire someone who is larger than life."
Vince going around, asking people, "Sir or Madam? Are you larger than life? If so, please be the face of my company for six years."
Like, do people really think that happens?
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Jun 9, 2021 10:19:33 GMT -5
My son tuned in to RAW last week, saw someone do a La Magistral, he turned to me and said father why oh why did he simply not cut an excellent promo on this man ans we sadly switched the TV off
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Post by Dub H on Jun 9, 2021 10:20:20 GMT -5
The main period that saw ratings drop was under Cena and Roman ,not any indie guy,in fact two times WWE had viewership jumps,it was with indie guys onntop( for RAW it was under CM PUNK and SD! 2016 under AJ and Ambrose).
So all these threads are already starting with a dishonest assumption.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 9, 2021 10:21:54 GMT -5
I think people are more interested in watching someone like The Miz over someone like an Okada or WALTER. Like, I'm not trying to say either of the other men would be watched more (and needs to be said again, do a survey on it because us guessing who people want to watch pretty much means nothing) but at this point in time, if people wanted to watch The Miz...they'd be tuning in to watch The Miz. That's no disrespect to the guy and I don't even think it's his fault stuff is where it is but...there's not really any numbers for that. I get what you’re saying, and that’s where the execution and writing comes into play. Like my point is, Miz being a person who gets a lot of tv time and storylines isn’t a WWE blunder. The execution of said story is. But who would you survey? The iwc would likely participate but we are just a loud minority in the grand scheme of things. It’s not like the “droves of fans” who stopped watching WWE are jumping ship to watch a rival promotion. They aren’t watching wrestling at all.
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Post by eJm on Jun 9, 2021 10:25:29 GMT -5
I get what you’re saying, and that’s where the execution and writing comes into play. Like my point is, Miz being a person who gets a lot of tv time and storylines isn’t a WWE blunder. The execution of said story is. But who would you survey? The iwc would likely participate but we are just a loud minority in the grand scheme of things. It’s not like the “droves of fans” who stopped watching WWE are jumping ship to watch a rival promotion. They aren’t watching wrestling at all. I'm not saying he is but your idea was more that people would watch The Miz over people if the story was good. WWE could probably build a good story with Okada and WALTER if the effort was put in to make them big deals because they have the money and video teams to do that. But they don't do that a lot of the time, or at least the last decade. They were doing a better job of building Nathan Jones than pretty much 95% of all NXT callups. I mean, find some fans who aren't watching and ask them why that is? Or random people on the street about pro wrestling? Like, those would be fairer ways to do a survey than just assuming those are what "casual fans" like, whoever the hell they even are.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 10:34:48 GMT -5
The Benoit example is a terrible one because he was, at one point, extremely over. What they did was push his in-ring skill, his best asset, but in ways that made sense.
Not much of a talker? Put him with Shane for a bit to give him a reason to end up with angles against people like the Rock. Want to get over that the crossface is a monster move? Have him do simple vignettes where he does something that takes only a few seconds, to reflect how quickly he beat someone with the move. Want to push the narrative that he's a hard worker and now is his time to shine? Do the "Catching Lightning in a bottle" vignettes when he was about to win the title at Wrestlemania.
What they should do and, at times they do well, at other times they do poorly, is find ways to take what is marketable about a talent and find ways to accentuate it.
If you have a great in-ring talent, find a way to accentuate that. Have a once in a generation promo person? Focus on that in the best way you can. Someone like Edge does something scandalous? Push that as best as you can. People think Brock Lesnar is a certain way in his real life? Push that.
But, simply put, what equals ratings is whatever gets people to watch. And that is different things for different talents at different times. Look at the reaction the first few Shield vs. Wyatt Family staredowns got. There were a lot of reasons the audience lost their shit and the fact that Luke Harper would do a Michinoku Driver II in his matches didn't scare the "casual fans" off.
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4TheGlory
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Post by 4TheGlory on Jun 9, 2021 10:36:35 GMT -5
The taste of fans changes constantly. What drew 10, 20 and 50 years ago doesn't mean it draws the same way now
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