kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,274
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jun 10, 2021 14:09:12 GMT -5
Workrate, micwork, charisma.
None of it matters when your program is the major detractor, and your performers have to work despite it.
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,151
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Jun 10, 2021 23:18:46 GMT -5
Mox even mentioned this, and Jericho backed him up, that if Vince finds out you have comedic timing in his mind you can make comedy work, and a lot of what Vince finds funny is sophomoric humor (to be nice). Hell just to contrast that Mox said how cool Dusty thought he was and wanted him to be a James Dean type character. But once you become a face champ Vince also tends to change what got you over. Diesel went from a cool badass to a month later wearing a Chistmas Hat singing Christmas Carols at Titan Tower. John Cena went from having more of an edge as a rapper to being a discount Rock with his promos. Hell even Sheamus when he turned face back in the day went from a rugged badass to trying to crack jokes like Cena. He's probably looking for a jacked-up George Carlin, then. Waitaminit...I've got it! An actual stand-up comedian gimmick - guy with a notebook and golf pencil always in hand cutting promos based on the contents of the notebook. Yes.... Jacked up George Carlin......... So Kevin Nash?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 2:49:13 GMT -5
Let's set aside logistical reasons, like the decline of traditional TV viewing and all that.
I think the biggest reason ratings are down is because I am probably like a lot of people in that: I. Just. Don't. Care. I don't care at all. I've heard great things about Tribal Chief Roman, but I don't care enough to get invested anymore.
There are no characters in the WWE at this point, there are just caricatures that spout buzzwords and catch phrases. For better or worse, that's how Vince wants it. The brand has to be bigger than any individual star, or else. That's not a "Workrate doesn't equal ratings" type of equation, that's a "In the fictitious world of professional wrestling, you have to a compelling story that involves characters you care about in a match that has both drama and good action" and all we get is "We'll let some of the best workers on the planet spout some pre-scripted lines and then have a meaningless 20 minute match."
Also, as has been said, Hulk Hogan may be an awful human being, but brother knew how to work. You have to when you're playing the valiant babyface overcoming the odds who also happens to be billed at 6'7 and 302 pounds of muscle.
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Post by eJm on Jun 11, 2021 4:48:50 GMT -5
I think the biggest reason ratings are down is because I am probably like a lot of people in that: I. Just. Don't. Care. I don't care at all. I've heard great things about Tribal Chief Roman, but I don't care enough to get invested anymore. Roman's a great example, to be honest. I hear so many good things about the character but I haven't watched a promo or a segment he's been in not because I don't buy it (Roman's always been a guy who could pull off something like that even from the brief NXT stop he had) but because...it's all too little too late. Roman as a character has been bungled and misstepped so many times, it's hard for me to appreciate the fact they found the right role for him because it took over half a decade to do that. Is it fair to Roman as a performer? No, but I'm not going to blame him for that. He didn't cause his character to go on these directions, he didn't specifically want John Cena to bury him six feet under in their promo battles or say "Sufferin' Suckatash" or be booked to go in one of the dullest main events in recent WrestleMania history. That's all on management. But because of management, I just can't care to watch and I've said it before, I would love a day when I can watch WWE shows weekly and enjoy them and talk about them with you lot and have fun instead of having these sorts of discussions over and over and over and over again.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jun 11, 2021 5:30:35 GMT -5
You guys are missing out on great TV if you haven’t seen any of heel Roman in the past year. Great stuff
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Post by polarbearpete on Jun 11, 2021 5:31:49 GMT -5
Bruno, Rock and until he was injured Austin could put on a great match in the ring. And to be fair Cena might have more 4+ star PPV matches than anybody in history That last statement made me curious and Cena really does have a great catalogue of PPV matches. I counted 37 4+ star PPV matches (excluding Royal Rumbles).
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 11, 2021 11:25:50 GMT -5
Work rate doesn’t equal ratings because wrestling can be very boring to the casual fan. Hell, sometimes I even get bored.
Been to a house show the last few years? Without all the camera angles, commentary, glitz, glamour and other distractions most of the crowd sits on their hands for the entire match aside from the entrances, the big moves and the finishes. A 20 minute “clinic” means nothing to them. That’s why TV matches have to be so short, especially in the Attitude era when they drew such a casual crowd. A six minute match was stretching it.
Work rate only draws the fans who appreciate the athleticism and art of the sport, and there aren’t usually enough of those people to fill arenas in each town and while their numbers could draw good ratings thats only if every single one watched the shows. I don’t think they’d hit a million views though.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,940
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Post by fw91 on Jun 11, 2021 12:10:26 GMT -5
Work rate doesn’t equal ratings because wrestling can be very boring to the casual fan. Hell, sometimes I even get bored. Been to a house show the last few years? Without all the camera angles, commentary, glitz, glamour and other distractions most of the crowd sits on their hands for the entire match aside from the entrances, the big moves and the finishes. A 20 minute “clinic” means nothing to them. That’s why TV matches have to be so short, especially in the Attitude era when they drew such a casual crowd. A six minute match was stretching it. Work rate only draws the fans who appreciate the athleticism and art of the sport, and there aren’t usually enough of those people to fill arenas in each town and while their numbers could draw good ratings thats only if every single one watched the shows. I don’t think they’d hit a million views though. Yes. All of this.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 12:18:12 GMT -5
Right but throwing "characters" out there to do "character" things only works for so long.
Because, at some point, someone they tried to push as a character, like Enzo, would have to get in the ring and, when he's boring or bad at working or even underwhelming in the ring, people would be like, "Who cares?"
The Rock wrestled. He was a huge character but at the end of the day, he wrestled. He had this crowd interactive, high spot oriented, "sports entertainment" style but he was good at it and was very athletic and didn't overlook the fact that he had to get it done in the ring.
If you have characters, not using ring work to develop their character work is a big mistake.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 11, 2021 12:31:28 GMT -5
Why do people continue to think of workrate as only super serious technical wrestling only instead of everything that makes a good wrestler a good wrestler? And that includes character work and promos.
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Post by eJm on Jun 11, 2021 12:34:55 GMT -5
Right but throwing "characters" out there to do "character" things only works for so long. Because, at some point, someone they tried to push as a character, like Enzo, would have to get in the ring and, when he's boring or bad at working or even underwhelming in the ring, people would be like, "Who cares?" The Rock wrestled. He was a huge character but at the end of the day, he wrestled. He had this crowd interactive, high spot oriented, "sports entertainment" style but he was good at it and was very athletic and didn't overlook the fact that he had to get it done in the ring. If you have characters, not using ring work to develop their character work is a big mistake. And also to add to this, most people talk about Raw during all this…Nitro was around too. And Nitro had longer matches than Raw at times. And for 88 Weeks, Nitro was kicking Raw’s car crash ass in the ratings. “But wait”, you might say, “that was just because of the stars at the top of the card”. Was it, though? Because if you watch any Nitro show of that time and watch a cruiserweight match or a Jericho/Benoit/Guerrero etc match, people weren’t sitting on their hands. Most of the time, they were heavily invested in said matches. Do you know one of the main moments when WCW lost the war and the WWF won? When Russo’s car crash, short matches style went to WCW and the WWF was able to push more guys who were good workers and there were longer matches people could invest in because they allowed that time to happen. Because that style does draw but the shelf life was ridiculously short. And yes, you had characters like Angle, Edge and Christian, the Hardys, The Radicals etc and not everything they tried click but enough did click that the workrate of those guys shown through. They got you invested which is literally a core part of the word.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 31,960
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Post by Perd on Jun 11, 2021 12:42:59 GMT -5
The only thing keeping me around is Mandy’s ring gear.
Seriously, today’ s wrestling is a little too in-ring focused for my tastes. I mainly watch wrestling for angles, promos, and characters. And there’s just not enough of that to hold my interest, regularly.
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Post by DSR on Jun 11, 2021 13:42:52 GMT -5
Why do people continue to think of workrate as only super serious technical wrestling only instead of everything that makes a good wrestler a good wrestler? And that includes character work and promos. Either super serious technical or "500 flip gymnastic routines" are the ideas typically thrown around.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,584
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Post by khali on Jun 11, 2021 17:27:42 GMT -5
I think another issue in the character quality is the overly scripted promos as well. It’s another aspect that stifles people from getting as over. It all fits the same mold. Rock could do comedy well in promos, so they did the same thing with Cena. And they tried it with Reigns too.
“Austin 3:16” was a line Austin thought off shortly before the promo. That wouldn’t happen now. He’d be given a script that he would deliver well, but it would have some weird verbiage in it and it wouldn’t be as powerful. There’s little chance for personalities to develop on their own.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,940
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Post by fw91 on Jun 11, 2021 18:47:07 GMT -5
The only thing keeping me around is Mandy’s ring gear. Seriously, today’ s wrestling is a little too in-ring focused for my tastes. I mainly watch wrestling for angles, promos, and characters. And there’s just not enough of that to hold my interest, regularly. Same here.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 13, 2021 11:11:16 GMT -5
The only thing keeping me around is Mandy’s ring gear. Seriously, today’ s wrestling is a little too in-ring focused for my tastes. I mainly watch wrestling for angles, promos, and characters. And there’s just not enough of that to hold my interest, regularly. Yeah, WWE reached a saturation point of great ring work while I was still watching where you had a MOTYC on Raw every week, and that's just... not sustainable. A match that is full of great wrestling is meaningless if it isn't telling a story, and WWE thinks they 'tell stories' when most of the time they really don't any more.
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Post by eJm on Jun 13, 2021 11:19:52 GMT -5
The only thing keeping me around is Mandy’s ring gear. Seriously, today’ s wrestling is a little too in-ring focused for my tastes. I mainly watch wrestling for angles, promos, and characters. And there’s just not enough of that to hold my interest, regularly. Yeah, WWE reached a saturation point of great ring work while I was still watching where you had a MOTYC on Raw every week, and that's just... not sustainable. A match that is full of great wrestling is meaningless if it isn't telling a story, and WWE thinks they 'tell stories' when most of the time they really don't any more. The way I see it, it’s like if you worked in a big box store and the staff you have are really good but you need more staff or you need to not have them doing so many roles at once when you’re not going to designate people. Like, it’s fantastic that the main core of your job is working out but if the customer comes in and the staff are tired, the store is going to be seen as lazy and reliant on barely anything and people won’t shop there. That’s down to management and creative. If they’re not going to do the work to make us invest in these people, why bother? It’s not their fault the circumstances are lopsided.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jun 13, 2021 11:47:01 GMT -5
Why do people continue to think of workrate as only super serious technical wrestling only instead of everything that makes a good wrestler a good wrestler? And that includes character work and promos. Just watch an Eddie Kingston match. Dude is a fantastic worker and it has very little to do with the actual moves he's doing.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 13, 2021 12:06:12 GMT -5
Why do people continue to think of workrate as only super serious technical wrestling only instead of everything that makes a good wrestler a good wrestler? And that includes character work and promos. Just watch an Eddie Kingston match. Dude is a fantastic worker and it has very little to do with the actual moves he's doing. Kingston has me believing he's shoot injured in almost every match.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 14, 2021 9:21:39 GMT -5
The only thing keeping me around is Mandy’s ring gear. Seriously, today’ s wrestling is a little too in-ring focused for my tastes. I mainly watch wrestling for angles, promos, and characters. And there’s just not enough of that to hold my interest, regularly. Yeah, WWE reached a saturation point of great ring work while I was still watching where you had a MOTYC on Raw every week, and that's just... not sustainable. A match that is full of great wrestling is meaningless if it isn't telling a story, and WWE thinks they 'tell stories' when most of the time they really don't any more. I think an issue is that people started looking at matches with well executed moves and spots as “match of the year” contenders, when anybody who’s followed stuff like that and star ratings over the years would tell you that a real five star match or a “MOTYC” is a confluence of great in-ring athleticism and spots AND strong character work, narratives, psychology, etc. Joe vs. Punk, Kawada vs. Misawa, Okada vs. Omega, all of them involved strong characters, lengthy stories, in-ring storytelling, and intense athleticism and technical wrestling combined into one grand show. Obviously this is all subjective, and a great match to one viewer can be “eh” to another, but you get what I mean. There’s always an audience for that, but modern WWE disregards a ton of it.
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