WWE doesn't seem to know how to structure a show anymore.

[Deleted]

I could go off on a tangent about WrestleMania but that's been well-tread, let's talk about tonight.

So you open with a match where the faces win! Then a heel wins. ... Then a heel wins. ... Then a heel wins. ... Then a tweener who's basically a heel wins by choking out the only face in the match ... Then the beloved face GM looks to be walking away.

Like, would it have killed them to have at least put the six man in the middle of the show to avoid just being one long buzzkill after the opener? It'd have been something.

[kingoftheindies]

Goes back to a point I made earlier today. WWE doesn't know how to get guys over in defeat anymore.... or more accurately they forget the story telling within someone's personal story arc Like I hate to bring an AEW guy into the discussion but if you look at how AEW built Darby Allin up with the idea being he was too wreckless and that kept him from winning the big one? When he won the TNT title it was a big moment and he has legit become a draw for AEW where the Network execs love him and he is constantly gaining viewers.

Or he'll look at the arc of the Tanahashi/Okada feud or Naito's arc to winning the IWGP title last year at Wrestle Kingdom. There was a narrative with each person that helped them get over and made them winning the big one mean something.

WWE needs to figure out how to capture that magic

[HMARK Center]

Jun 13, 2021 22:28:40 GMT -5 kingoftheindies said:

Goes back to a point I made earlier today. WWE doesn't know how to get guys over in defeat anymore.... or more accurately they forget the story telling within someone's personal story arc Like I hate to bring an AEW guy into the discussion but if you look at how AEW built Darby Allin up with the idea being he was too wreckless and that kept him from winning the big one? When he won the TNT title it was a big moment and he has legit become a draw for AEW where the Network execs love him and he is constantly gaining viewers.

Or he'll look at the arc of the Tanahashi/Okada feud or Naito's arc to winning the IWGP title last year at Wrestle Kingdom. There was a narrative with each person that helped them get over and made them winning the big one mean something.

WWE needs to figure out how to capture that magic

Just said it in another thread, but WWE has to integrate *some* kind of storytelling/psychology into its typical match layouts beyond “face starts hot, heel shortcuts and draws heat for awhile, baby face comeback, go to finish” for that to work.

Consider one of the most iconic moments of the Okada/Tanahashi feud: Okada losing his grip on the Rainmaker, allowing Tana the chance to hit a Slingblade and end up winning, leaving Okada broken...but the next year in the rematch Okada keeps his grip on Tana’s wrist, the camera zooms in on his clutch, and everybody who’s been watching over the last year goes “oooh, this is it!” It’s simple, but it teaches you to notice and pay attention to what each man does in the ring whenever they face one another, and adds a new dimension to the proceedings. You use pro wrestling to pay off your pro wrestling storyline and character development.

Without that, people are only trained to respond to moves, usually either finishers or high spots, and they’ll only care about the match’s outcome (much to Trips’ chagrin, I’m sure) because the match itself isn’t particularly meaningful to the grand scheme of things.

[mc74]

Jun 14, 2021 5:56:46 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jun 13, 2021 22:28:40 GMT -5 kingoftheindies said:

Goes back to a point I made earlier today. WWE doesn't know how to get guys over in defeat anymore.... or more accurately they forget the story telling within someone's personal story arc Like I hate to bring an AEW guy into the discussion but if you look at how AEW built Darby Allin up with the idea being he was too wreckless and that kept him from winning the big one? When he won the TNT title it was a big moment and he has legit become a draw for AEW where the Network execs love him and he is constantly gaining viewers.

Or he'll look at the arc of the Tanahashi/Okada feud or Naito's arc to winning the IWGP title last year at Wrestle Kingdom. There was a narrative with each person that helped them get over and made them winning the big one mean something.

WWE needs to figure out how to capture that magic

Just said it in another thread, but WWE has to integrate *some* kind of storytelling/psychology into its typical match layouts beyond “face starts hot, heel shortcuts and draws heat for awhile, baby face comeback, go to finish” for that to work.

Consider one of the most iconic moments of the Okada/Tanahashi feud: Okada losing his grip on the Rainmaker, allowing Tana the chance to hit a Slingblade and end up winning, leaving Okada broken...but the next year in the rematch Okada keeps his grip on Tana’s wrist, the camera zooms in on his clutch, and everybody who’s been watching over the last year goes “oooh, this is it!” It’s simple, but it teaches you to notice and pay attention to what each man does in the ring whenever they face one another, and adds a new dimension to the proceedings. You use pro wrestling to pay off your pro wrestling storyline and character development.

Without that, people are only trained to respond to moves, usually either finishers or high spots, and they’ll only care about the match’s outcome (much to Trips’ chagrin, I’m sure) because the match itself isn’t particularly meaningful to the grand scheme of things.

Not just the matches either, but storytelling as a whole. The only compelling story that they've got going right now is the one they're doing with Reigns and the Usos. Beyond that, there's nothing of note that stands out as "must see" TV. There's nothing that moves the needle and entices the audience to tune in each and every week to see what happens next. WWE's booking is atrocious, and even when they do manage to get something good going (i.e: Hurt Business, Randy Orton vs Fiend feud), they somehow find a way to f*** it up and kill one's further interest in the program.

It's like what Bret Hart said about WWE creative and the element of storytelling being lost within WWE today. The lack of psychology in the matches, the promos almost sounding all the same, angles that don't make any sense, the overall lack of continuity, etc....

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

WWE's big issue is that nobody on the booking side cares and it shows. That's why shows are so god damn boring.

[Hypnosis]

They should have added Ciampa and Thatcher vs. Grizzled Young Veterans to the IYH card, or Shirai since she did just return on NXT last week.

There could have been at least one more face win out of those additions.

I also wish Dunne could have beaten Kross for the title.

[Hurbster]

I thought the show was great.

[Dub H]

I have a few times that NXT just became.WWE lite booking wise. It has better wrestling and better focus on who people like but the same issues /pattern/production and recently it feels like it has shown by what I have read and seen.

[khali]

They’ve really hit critical mass on heels mostly winning, down to NXT now. And when you’ve got the heel champions in with challengers that you don’t feel have a chance to win, it leads to flat finishes.

[fw91]

I just think it’s all apathetic. Nobody to care about

[Deleted]

It's funny, because pretty much every single WWE show would get somewhere in the D/D- range on TEW/EWR, even with that star studded roster because they'd all get the repetitive match booking and too many heel victories note.

A 20+ year old text based computer game has a better grasp on basic pro wrestling booking than the WWE.

[nisidhe]

We've joked about "It's Creative's fault" for the last ten years or more, but in the past year and change it's absolutely true.

This is what happens when you have a bank of TV writers with neither a history nor real interest in the lexicon of pro wrestling, and no passion for their craft or their contribution to the product. This is what happens when you are writing for an audience of one (Vince) who wants, above all, to place the brand above the characters. When the characters don't matter to Vince, why should they matter to anyone else?

This is also what happens when the talent roster, with very few exceptions, has checked out emotionally from the product and has no real interest in keeping it going.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Jun 14, 2021 11:16:00 GMT -5 khali said:

They’ve really hit critical mass on heels mostly winning, down to NXT now. And when you’ve got the heel champions in with challengers that you don’t feel have a chance to win, it leads to flat finishes.

A weird flex to have fans be miserable because all the bad guys keep winning with little opposition just before a return to live shows, but… okay, I guess

[HMARK Center]

Jun 14, 2021 12:02:37 GMT -5 Bang Bang Bart said:

Jun 14, 2021 11:16:00 GMT -5 khali said:

They’ve really hit critical mass on heels mostly winning, down to NXT now. And when you’ve got the heel champions in with challengers that you don’t feel have a chance to win, it leads to flat finishes.

A weird flex to have fans be miserable because all the bad guys keep winning with little opposition just before a return to live shows, but… okay, I guess

Not for nothing, but the early reports are that ticket sales for their return to touring are...not great.

Honestly? At a certain point it's to be expected; they've literally spent about 20 years at this point constantly denying people satisfying, let alone happy, endings to storylines and character arcs, except seemingly when fans have pretty much threatened to rebel and ruin a Wrestlemania if they don't get the preferred outcome. Yet even when they've delivered in that situation, ala Bryan's and Kofi's title wins, they've consistently illustrated that they have no idea where they want to go next: Chris Benoit won the title in what was then a feel good moment in 2004 and proceeded to do absolutely nothing in terms of feuds or character development until he unceremoniously dropped the belt to a still green Orton at Summerslam, Bryan was shuffled into a go-nowhere feud with Kane before his injuries took him out, and Kofi's title reign didn't offer him interesting new directions to go in before he was treated like a complete loser at the end and immediately sent packing to the midcard.

Again, we're talking nearly twenty years of this; 90% of the time you don't get the satisfying ending, and the other 10% of the time you get a brief moment of satisfaction followed by months of "...did you have a plan for any of this, or are you just winging it?" It's almost shocking it's taken this long for the drop offs to happen as they have; even heel dominated promotions or organizations like the old school NWA in the eras with heel Harley Race and Ric Flair as champions didn't have that sort of feeling to them, since Race and Flair often retained the belt in ways that kept top regional babyfaces looking strong in each territory they visited, something you can't really do after awhile when everything is televised in one place.

[mattyy]

Jun 14, 2021 11:52:50 GMT -5 @mattyphatty said:

It's funny, because pretty much every single WWE show would get somewhere in the D/D- range on TEW/EWR, even with that star studded roster because they'd all get the repetitive match booking and too many heel victories note.

A 20+ year old text based computer game has a better grasp on basic pro wrestling booking than the WWE.

"You used Alexa Bliss too much. Fans are beginning to resent seeing her"

[nisidhe]

Jun 14, 2021 12:02:37 GMT -5 Bang Bang Bart said:

Jun 14, 2021 11:16:00 GMT -5 khali said:

They’ve really hit critical mass on heels mostly winning, down to NXT now. And when you’ve got the heel champions in with challengers that you don’t feel have a chance to win, it leads to flat finishes.

A weird flex to have fans be miserable because all the bad guys keep winning with little opposition just before a return to live shows, but… okay, I guess

Fans have been dissatisfied with the product for years now.

WWE used to be a promotion that favoured babyface champions because a) it offered more income via merch and increased ticket sales, b) it made the monster heels seem utter threats to that order and c) it allowed a stacked undercard to flourish in profile because the champion felt "safe". There was also the overarching narrative that the WWF champion represented the possibilities of America - the underdog, the immigrant, coming to Lady Liberty's shores with a few bucks in the pocket and making good their shot - that grossly differed from NWA's Southern-based narrative of class differences and more than echoes of Lost Cause

I get that, for many fans of the Attitude Era and after, that was not a normal state of affairs. I get that Triple H has had a hard-on for NWA-style booking that has seeped into WWE's booking as well. I get that heels are very often more entertaining characters and that faces are often treated like chumps.

The issue that has plagued WWE for a _very_ long time, however, is that they have pushed the fans through periods of frustration so long and so deep that, on the _very_ rare occasions when some hero blows up the Death Star and comes through with the big win, fans no longer trust WWE to keep that momentum going. Fans are reduced to waiting for the other shoe to drop and then get angry when the heels win or the Authority shows its mug on TV or Lesnar shows up.

WWE has made it loud and clear that it has no intention of giving fans the happy endings that are craved, and every assurance that they will continue to frustrate, abuse and test the patience and loyalty of its fans until there are none left.

[HMARK Center]

Huh, just had a thought about some of this stuff: if someone could pinpoint some moments in the recent history of WWE booking where there's a clear "you thought the good guys would come out on top, BUT NO, BAD GUYS WIN!" show or segment, it might be notable to then build a graph showing the ratings trend line in the weeks after that segment, and if they triggered any sort of sharper than usual drop in viewership.

Like, I'm thinking of the time they had Ziggler "vanquish the Authority" with help from Sting, only to renege on that just a couple of weeks or whatever it was later, the kind of thing where you felt like you saw a major moment only to find out that you've effectively been bait n' switch'd. Maybe that was long enough ago that not everyone had thoroughly internalized the "we can't have nice things, can we?" feeling, but it's something to be curious about, I suppose.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Jun 14, 2021 17:34:14 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Huh, just had a thought about some of this stuff: if someone could pinpoint some moments in the recent history of WWE booking where there's a clear "you thought the good guys would come out on top, BUT NO, BAD GUYS WIN!" show or segment, it might be notable to then build a graph showing the ratings trend line in the weeks after that segment, and if they triggered any sort of sharper than usual drop in viewership.

Like, I'm thinking of the time they had Ziggler "vanquish the Authority" with help from Sting, only to renege on that just a couple of weeks or whatever it was later, the kind of thing where you felt like you saw a major moment only to find out that you've effectively been bait n' switch'd. Maybe that was long enough ago that not everyone had thoroughly internalized the "we can't have nice things, can we?" feeling, but it's something to be curious about, I suppose.

I think the Authority angle might be the beginning of this “misery booking” trend in modern times.

[HMARK Center]

Jun 14, 2021 18:01:47 GMT -5 Bang Bang Bart said:

Jun 14, 2021 17:34:14 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Huh, just had a thought about some of this stuff: if someone could pinpoint some moments in the recent history of WWE booking where there's a clear "you thought the good guys would come out on top, BUT NO, BAD GUYS WIN!" show or segment, it might be notable to then build a graph showing the ratings trend line in the weeks after that segment, and if they triggered any sort of sharper than usual drop in viewership.

Like, I'm thinking of the time they had Ziggler "vanquish the Authority" with help from Sting, only to renege on that just a couple of weeks or whatever it was later, the kind of thing where you felt like you saw a major moment only to find out that you've effectively been bait n' switch'd. Maybe that was long enough ago that not everyone had thoroughly internalized the "we can't have nice things, can we?" feeling, but it's something to be curious about, I suppose.

I think the Authority angle might be the beginning of this “misery booking” trend in modern times.

You can certainly go back even further to see when the change was setting in, Triple H's "reign of terror" being the big one for a lot of people (and the Booker T match, in particular), but yeah, for the most recent era that may be right, and again it's one of those easy to pinpoint moments.

Like, even for me I gave up on WWE ever really being a show I would get heavily invested in back at the end of 2004/start of 2005, when Benoit had that lackluster reign, lost to Orton, who immediately lost the belt to Triple H, who then lost the belt in a 3-way with Benoit and Edge on Raw ("ooh, exciting, something new and different happened!")...and then won the belt back like a week or two later at a PPV in an elimination chamber match. I seriously saw that result with Triple H winning the belt back the night it happened and said "Ok, I'm done"; didn't even care once they started building to Batista beating him at WM, I just couldn't get myself to care anymore.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Jun 14, 2021 22:29:21 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jun 14, 2021 18:01:47 GMT -5 Bang Bang Bart said:

I think the Authority angle might be the beginning of this “misery booking” trend in modern times.

You can certainly go back even further to see when the change was setting in, Triple H's "reign of terror" being the big one for a lot of people (and the Booker T match, in particular), but yeah, for the most recent era that may be right, and again it's one of those easy to pinpoint moments.

Like, even for me I gave up on WWE ever really being a show I would get heavily invested in back at the end of 2004/start of 2005, when Benoit had that lackluster reign, lost to Orton, who immediately lost the belt to Triple H, who then lost the belt in a 3-way with Benoit and Edge on Raw ("ooh, exciting, something new and different happened!")...and then won the belt back like a week or two later at a PPV in an elimination chamber match. I seriously saw that result with Triple H winning the belt back the night it happened and said "Ok, I'm done"; didn't even care once they started building to Batista beating him at WM, I just couldn't get myself to care anymore.

Reign of Terror definitely was it, but by 2009, misery booking wasn’t really full force, mainly due to WWE embracing the total opposite of dominant heels and having John Cena full on in his Super-Cena run and a face Triple H being at the top. It only really became a recurring thing with The Authority and hasn’t let up since, even with the faction long gone.