October 2019 was an interesting turning point for WWE...

[Mozenrath]

The videos are more for a refresher than necessarily the topic itself. Still, Bryan says, "It will only get worse," which is what I'm here to discuss.





If anyone wasn't around yet for one reason or another, I can't really overstate how humiliating early October was for WWE. They went head to head and suffered their first total loss to an opponent in many years (I can't remember if TNA ever beat them head to head when the WWE ran ECW, that's the only time I can see it really being possible post-WCW). They seemingly got salty and punished Smackdown fans by not presenting Undertaker, Sting, and Stone Cold as advertised, despite Sting being backstage. Kofi loses in 7 seconds to Brock, probably unrelated but salt in the wound, and it was announced 205 Live would be after Smackdown, with WWE reneging on that, too. They failed to announce most of the card for Hell in a Cell until the weekend it took place, not even on television.

They then have one of the most universally mocked and loathed finishes in WWE main event history. Like, try and argue otherwise. You can say there have been worst main event finishes, and there might be, but can anyone tell me, out of all of the title matches and special attractions to close WWE shows that there have been 10 or more worse than a DQ in a Hell in a Cell that they had to hastily rewrite into a referee stoppage, all while their roster on the reaction stream watches gobsmacked, with X-Pac completely baffled? All so WWE could save the actual title match for the real paying customers: the Saudi royal family.

They've had more embarrassing times as a company. The mid-90s was an onslaught of humiliation, with Vince barely keeping from stiffing guys on paychecks. The InVasion was arguably worse in a lot of respects, or the guest host era of Raw. But, I'm asking for you to look at WWE at one of their most embarrassed in recent years, and compare it to now. Do you think WWE is worse right now or better? I'm not asking if you think AEW or NJPW or any other company is better, this is strictly WWE versus WWE. I mainly brought up the Wednesday Night "War" because it's important context for the early October 2019 pants-shitting WWE was pulling, with stinklines visibly hanging in the air.

[Famous Rocking Chimes]

Probably worse just because it feels like WWE is haemorrhaging viewers and interest at an alarming rate. I certainly feel my interest in them waning.

I genuinely feel like if Punk and Bryan turn up in AEW as rumoured that WWE without the likes of Cena, Goldberg, Rock etc will be ratings poison.

I’ll freely admit to being a casual viewer of AEW but if Punk and Bryan turn up, those two are in my favourite wrestlers of all time - especially Punk who is my non-Attitude Era favourite of all time - I will be following AEW more often.

WWE just feels like a corporate entity that happens to do wrestling matches. And that’s not a knock on the talent. I generally enjoy the PPVs and there are wrestlers like Reigns, Balor, Cesaro, AJ, Zayn. Rollins, Edge, Orton, McIntyre and Zayn who when given the chance can put on great matches. But it’s hard to get invested because there’s every chance Vince gets bored and releases them.

[rnrk supports BLM]

On the week of AEW Dynamite's debut, it was really nice of WWE to reassure Cody that if he'd stuck around, put on his best work, gotten the fans behind him, and on top of all that been in the right place at the right time for a push to really catch fire and propel him into the main event, he'd still be tossed aside like garbage the minute they had another part-timer gimmick lined up.

[Mozenrath]

Aug 15, 2021 19:05:29 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

On the week of AEW Dynamite's debut, it was really nice of WWE to reassure Cody that if he'd stuck around, put on his best work, gotten the fans behind him, and on top of all that been in the right place at the right time for a push to really catch fire and propel him into the main event, he'd still be tossed aside like garbage the minute they had another part-timer gimmick lined up.

It's okay, they totally did something with this and totally were vindicated in the end. Like, any minute now, Kofi will get some measure of revenge. Any minute.

[mc74]

Things just continue to get worse and worse for WWE.

[Hypnosis]

WWE released a wrestler with high merch sells just recently.

Also, Big Show and Mark Henry were with WWE for so long, and now they're both in AEW, so that's less veteran leadership.

NXT's getting dismantled.

Things are certainly worse now.

[Spider2024]

Way, way worse.

And really, the problem over the past 2 years has been WWE's own hubris and stupidity. They've had record setting revenue and yet, in the face of actual competition for the first time in 2 decades, it would've been the perfect time to set up for long term success of the company, building up the next generation of stars and writing storylines and feuds that aren't a chore to sit through. Instead, they became even stupider with their roster choices and even more arrogant with their crappy booking, insisting now more than ever before that fans will like whatever WWE feeds them. They still haven't learned the lesson of "no, it doesn't work that way, stupid WWE."

[Mozenrath]

I forgot that Eric Bischoff got fired like a week or two later after being in charge of Smackdown for like a couple of months. I am not putting that on the same level as a lot of the other stuff, it's just a further sample of what chaos WWE was in October 2019, the shit-show that was his tenure and firing.

[Hypnosis]

Aug 15, 2021 19:42:00 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

I forgot that Eric Bischoff got fired like a week or two later after being in charge of Smackdown for like a couple of months. I am not putting that on the same level as a lot of the other stuff, it's just a further sample of what chaos WWE was in October 2019, the shit-show that was his tenure and firing.

Then WWE went full supervillain after the pandemic hit by starting all those mass releases, and the third-party services deal.

[Starshine]

I think the fall started a year earlier around Crown Jewel time. That was one of the first truly morally questionable events of recent history. Greatest Royal Rumble was bad too, especially with all WWE basically becoming a political propaganda machine for the Saudi regime, but it really boiled over at CJ. That also followed a Hell in a Cell match similarly without a proper ending, while probably not being as egregious as Rollins/Wyatt, still didn't make a lick of sense.

[smokinvokoun86]

I think between Brock beating Kofi in seconds and the Hell in a Cell match…that was probably the last straw. Plus that was when AEW Dynamite debuted and I pretty much ceased caring about what WWE. And I feel like I made the right choice.

[smokinvokoun86]

Aug 15, 2021 19:41:44 GMT -5 Spider2024 said:

Way, way worse.

And really, the problem over the past 2 years has been WWE's own hubris and stupidity. They've had record setting revenue and yet, in the face of actual competition for the first time in 2 decades, it would've been the perfect time to set up for long term success of the company, building up the next generation of stars and writing storylines and feuds that aren't a chore to sit through. Instead, they became even stupider with their roster choices and even more arrogant with their crappy booking, insisting now more than ever before that fans will like whatever WWE feeds them. They still haven't learned the lesson of "no, it doesn't work that way, stupid WWE."

When AEW started, I thought the added competition would want them to work harder on their storylines.

But the sad fact is they feel like they have no need to even try anymore, because in their mind, it’s already perfect as is. They make more money than ever before, why would they change? The only reason WWE switched their booking philosophy in 97 was because of desperation. They were legit not number one anymore. But even if they are worse now creatively than even The New Generation era, there is no desperation. They aren’t in danger of going out of business right now. I’m their mind, they could have Bobby Lashley stare into the hard cam for three hours and they will still make record bank.

Quite simply, they don’t give a shit.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

So the timing of this post is actually really funny, because just today, Alvarez talked about how WWE spent months advertising a supercard in Charlotte, NC last night with Charlotte in the main event. Charlotte was not at the show last night because she was in Mexico with her fiance and her father, and WWE didn't say anything and didn't tell anybody she wasn't there, so a crowd certain the hometown girl would be there never showed. And he went on a big spiel about how WWE is faced with unprecedented coordination from all these promotions working together and being on the rise, and they're doing this no-show stuff and pivoting toward big guys instead. He said it would be like if, faced with a winning WCW in the late '90s, Vince went, "WE'RE GOING BACK TO '91! GET ME PAPA SHANGO!" So these posts from the early days of the fight are really fascinating because almost two years later we're seeing WWE's response and it's uh. It's still not great.

Two years ago, NXT was hot. No matter what happened on the main roster, people who wanted to watch NXT had NXT. Now, interest in NXT is flagging and it's about to be taken out behind the shed and shot. Before getting into nay main roster anything, that simple fact means things are worse now. The WWE show people liked is getting gutted. Stamford may as well be goddamn Mordor for how much doom is hanging over this company.

[mattyy]

Aug 15, 2021 22:11:56 GMT -5 Starshine said:

I think the fall started a year earlier around Crown Jewel time. That was one of the first truly morally questionable events of recent history. Greatest Royal Rumble was bad too, especially with all WWE basically becoming a political propaganda machine for the Saudi regime, but it really boiled over at CJ. That also followed a Hell in a Cell match similarly without a proper ending, while probably not being as egregious as Rollins/Wyatt, still didn't make a lick of sense.

I agree. Crown Jewel 2018 was my breaking point as a WWE fan that would actually watch regularly. WWE continuing to do Crown Jewel DESPITE what had happened in Saudi, it blew my mind. It was around that time that the trademarks for AEW started leaking, so My wrestling intrigue was in ROH/NJPW selling at the Garden, and the AEW rumors.

[Bo Rida]

On screen that was a low, off-screen it got way worse since the pandemic.

Creatively that was the breaking point for me though, everything ending in Brock and a guy I'd never heard of, clearly wasn't for me any more. Reading the hiac dq confirmed it.

I came back twice. First time I watched in horror as Charlotte failed to notice/care Kari was concussed and didn't come back until...zombies. Once again I am done.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

I don't see how it ISN'T worse. They got outright exposed in the pandemic era and now going back to fans it's only proved even more so.

Couple that with the mass cuts and releases throughout the entire company? I don't see how it isn't worse... morale's gotta be at a near all time low outside of Vince and company.

[mcmahonfan85]

i honestly forgot Kofi Kingston was champion

[ronnie2hotty]

Aug 16, 2021 0:05:10 GMT -5 smokinvokoun86 said:

Aug 15, 2021 19:41:44 GMT -5 Spider2024 said:

Way, way worse.

And really, the problem over the past 2 years has been WWE's own hubris and stupidity. They've had record setting revenue and yet, in the face of actual competition for the first time in 2 decades, it would've been the perfect time to set up for long term success of the company, building up the next generation of stars and writing storylines and feuds that aren't a chore to sit through. Instead, they became even stupider with their roster choices and even more arrogant with their crappy booking, insisting now more than ever before that fans will like whatever WWE feeds them. They still haven't learned the lesson of "no, it doesn't work that way, stupid WWE."

When AEW started, I thought the added competition would want them to work harder on their storylines.

But the sad fact is they feel like they have no need to even try anymore, because in their mind, it’s already perfect as is. They make more money than ever before, why would they change? The only reason WWE switched their booking philosophy in 97 was because of desperation. They were legit not number one anymore. But even if they are worse now creatively than even The New Generation era, there is no desperation. They aren’t in danger of going out of business right now. I’m their mind, they could have Bobby Lashley stare into the hard cam for three hours and they will still make record bank.

Quite simply, they don’t give a shit.

I disagree that they don't give a shit. I don't think the WWE realizes there is a problem with their product, at least not in the same sense that most of the audience thinks there is. This isn't 1997. The WWF of 97 and the WWE of 2021 is apples and oranges. The WWE is a now a publicly traded company. The only obligation they have is to their stock holders, not their audience watching television. Can a better television product lead to higher ratings, which leads to higher advertising dollars? Yes. Has WWE been hemorrhaging money and losing advertising dollars so much that the stock holders are demanding answers? No. Not even close. Quite the opposite. With a few budget cuts (i.e. releasing wrestlers), they were able to make record profits. In WWE's own eyes, they are the best they've ever been.

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2021 0:30:25 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

So the timing of this post is actually really funny, because just today, Alvarez talked about how WWE spent months advertising a supercard in Charlotte, NC last night with Charlotte in the main event. Charlotte was not at the show last night because she was in Mexico with her fiance and her father, and WWE didn't say anything and didn't tell anybody she wasn't there, so a crowd certain the hometown girl would be there never showed.

Wow. That sounds like some late '90s WCW shit.

[James Fabiano]

Aug 16, 2021 10:00:54 GMT -5 ronnie2hotty said:

Aug 16, 2021 0:05:10 GMT -5 smokinvokoun86 said:

When AEW started, I thought the added competition would want them to work harder on their storylines.

But the sad fact is they feel like they have no need to even try anymore, because in their mind, it’s already perfect as is. They make more money than ever before, why would they change? The only reason WWE switched their booking philosophy in 97 was because of desperation. They were legit not number one anymore. But even if they are worse now creatively than even The New Generation era, there is no desperation. They aren’t in danger of going out of business right now. I’m their mind, they could have Bobby Lashley stare into the hard cam for three hours and they will still make record bank.

Quite simply, they don’t give a shit.

I disagree that they don't give a shit. I don't think the WWE realizes there is a problem with their product, at least not in the same sense that most of the audience thinks there is. This isn't 1997. The WWF of 97 and the WWE of 2021 is apples and oranges. The WWE is a now a publicly traded company. The only obligation they have is to their stock holders, not their audience watching television. Can a better television product lead to higher ratings, which leads to higher advertising dollars? Yes. Has WWE been hemorrhaging money and losing advertising dollars so much that the stock holders are demanding answers? No. Not even close. Quite the opposite. With a few budget cuts (i.e. releasing wrestlers), they were able to make record profits. In WWE's own eyes, they are the best they've ever been.

Me three. If they did they wouldn't be feeding so many people to AEW indeed. (barring the miniscule possibility that one of the conspiracy theories by certain people are true).

As for me, some of the newest cuts and the possibility of a watered down NXT will lead me to a familiar place: just throwing my hands up and going back to only watching old school shows I grew up with. Also going to indy shows with appearances by old school stars. I did that back in the 2000s when I tapped out during the Reign of Terror. Sure there's a few people I do like and I'll check out their segments, but as we know now...nothing's for sure so who knows if I'd even have that?

Shoot, given that so many of my favorite sitcoms are gone from network TV now, I want to go back to the classics there too. I am coming full circle....

And no, AEW to me is not a solution. Dunno if my mind's been poisoned by the opinion of certain unnamed podcasts or what, or if it's just It's Popular So I Don't Wanna Join In. Probably it's because nothing is like the wrestling I grew up with. Maybe it's good to fans today, fine. Still.

(EDIT: And now I am depressed reading this. Happens a lot when I look into current news)