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Post by katieklaus on Sept 30, 2021 23:56:34 GMT -5
Hear me out. I think WWE have a point by getting rid of these indy wrestlers and going the more homegrown route. There was far too many wrestlers in the company who had nothing else going for them apart from the fact that they were "good wrestlers" That isn't enough for me. I need gimmicks, characters, personalities, unique ring attires, good vignettes/promos. Put it this way. Who am I more intrigued by - Tony D'Angelo or Bobby Fish? Its Tony D'Angelo. I have never heard of the guy but that little vignette makes me think " I need to check this guy out next week"... "pure Rasslers" like Fish, Thatcher, Roderick Strong, Kyle O Reilly etc never made me think that. They might be good in the ring but nobody whos never watched wrestling before is leaving the channel on. When I was a 3 year old, it was guys like Doink, Papa Shango and Yokozuna who got me hooked. I doubt I would've been mad for wrestling if my first impression was Mick McManus vs Billy Robinson. I mean, isn't coming up with compelling characters and stuff the job of the people running the show? They already overscript everything to shit, so why's that burden suddenly on the wrestlers now? Playing devils advocate here but isn't it up to the wrestler to carry it off? I mean we have Cool Kyle now but is he doing it justice? Look at Johnny Gargano in comparison, he is taking his nerdy Papa of The Way gimmick and making lemonade right now. A lot of the wrestler types are just not capable of giving anything other than straight lemon juice. |
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Post by Starshine on Oct 1, 2021 0:04:14 GMT -5
I mean, isn't coming up with compelling characters and stuff the job of the people running the show? They already overscript everything to shit, so why's that burden suddenly on the wrestlers now? Playing devils advocate here but isn't it up to the wrestler to carry it off? I mean we have Cool Kyle now but is he doing it justice? Look at Johnny Gargano in comparison, he is taking his nerdy Papa of The Way gimmick and making lemonade right now. A lot of the wrestler types are just not capable of giving anything other than straight lemon juice. But that's just an argument for playing to strengths. It's on the booker to put the performer in the best light possible; lots of successful wrestlers have suffered under ill-fitting gimmicks. It's not their fault if they're being pushed to stick with what isn't working. |
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Post by katieklaus on Oct 1, 2021 0:20:55 GMT -5
Playing devils advocate here but isn't it up to the wrestler to carry it off? I mean we have Cool Kyle now but is he doing it justice? Look at Johnny Gargano in comparison, he is taking his nerdy Papa of The Way gimmick and making lemonade right now. A lot of the wrestler types are just not capable of giving anything other than straight lemon juice. But that's just an argument for playing to strengths. It's on the booker to put the performer in the best light possible; lots of successful wrestlers have suffered under ill-fitting gimmicks. It's not their fault if they're being pushed to stick with what isn't working. And I'd agree on the most part. On the other hand it must feel pretty shitty to write an Alec Baldwin role and get a Daniel Baldwin performance. Some of these guys, no matter what you give them, are only going to be capable of that. If you have 10 or so of those guys and you're looking for more, something has got to give. |
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 1, 2021 1:15:27 GMT -5
Some guys work with the "pure wrestler do no flash" gimmick. A lot of guys ended up with it because NXT was an environment to do it in and they didn't really have much further direction. Doesn't mean they can't work a character, doesn't mean they can't settle into a gimmick. Gargano being brought up feels like an especially steep example of that; he was for years just Wrestleguy outside WWE, came in to NXT to become Wrestleguy, spent forever main eventing as Wrestleguy, and only recently has settled into character work that's getting him this much attention.
You can give a talented wrestler a character. You can't raise a guy from scratch and just magically turn him into a good everything. Especially if you end up with a bunch of homegrown guys who can't work as well but also don't really have much personality to them, which is bound to happen and has happened since the dawn of the business. Bland dudes will come in, get pushes, waste out.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 1, 2021 1:51:44 GMT -5
But that's just an argument for playing to strengths. It's on the booker to put the performer in the best light possible; lots of successful wrestlers have suffered under ill-fitting gimmicks. It's not their fault if they're being pushed to stick with what isn't working. And I'd agree on the most part. On the other hand it must feel pretty shitty to write an Alec Baldwin role and get a Daniel Baldwin performance. Some of these guys, no matter what you give them, are only going to be capable of that. If you have 10 or so of those guys and you're looking for more, something has got to give. The WWE don't write for the actor, they write for the producer, with the possibility of the entire script being thrown in the trash on the night of a shoot. You could have prime Alec Baldwin in the role, but you'll still get a bad performance when he's given dreck with no time for him and his co-workers to properly learn the lines and little room for improv. You aren't winning an Oscar when you're crying over a doll, getting cuckolded or dropping lines like 'Sufferin Succotash'. This whole thing is cosmetic, they want people who look like 'real' athletes, which in Vince's mind are bodybuilders and NFL players from 1985. It won't do squat to fix the issues that are caused by his creative direction, but nobody around him has enough influence to change that. The same bad material is going to be coming from the mouths of people who're a little taller and have less ability to say no to bad writing, or quit when their contracts are up to go elsewhere. Johnny Footballman isn't going to be walking out to work the indies when their contract is through, they're more likely to quit like all the other former college athletes they've burned through. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 3:02:03 GMT -5
Hear me out. I think WWE have a point by getting rid of these indy wrestlers and going the more homegrown route. There was far too many wrestlers in the company who had nothing else going for them apart from the fact that they were "good wrestlers" That isn't enough for me. I need gimmicks, characters, personalities, unique ring attires, good vignettes/promos. Put it this way. Who am I more intrigued by - Tony D'Angelo or Bobby Fish? Its Tony D'Angelo. I have never heard of the guy but that little vignette makes me think " I need to check this guy out next week"... "pure Rasslers" like Fish, Thatcher, Roderick Strong, Kyle O Reilly etc never made me think that. They might be good in the ring but nobody whos never watched wrestling before is leaving the channel on. When I was a 3 year old, it was guys like Doink, Papa Shango and Yokozuna who got me hooked. I doubt I would've been mad for wrestling if my first impression was Mick McManus vs Billy Robinson. I mean, isn't coming up with compelling characters and stuff the job of the people running the show? They already overscript everything to shit, so why's that burden suddenly on the wrestlers now? Most of those indy wrestlers are too stubborn to start all over again. They think they're already made cause of their reputation. I'm not saying Adam Cole should've shaved his head bald and became a manager by the way... But imagine telling someone like Roderick Strong "Okay, you're going to be doing a Car Sales Man gimmick"... Would he do it and try to get it over? Most likely not. But some random guy they signed through the Performance Centre might. And who knows, that Car Sales Man gimmick could be the next IRS. I see the advantages. Vinces vision of wrestling has and always will be the cartoony circus type version of wrestling we got in the 80s and early 90s. That's why we are seeing these new gimmicks on NXT. He didn't give a damn about "5 star matches" between two regular guys in black trunks. And personally speaking, the novelty of all that does wear off after a bit and you start missing and getting nostalgic over the way wrestling used to be with the vignettes and cheesy gimmicks. |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 1, 2021 3:22:28 GMT -5
I mean, isn't coming up with compelling characters and stuff the job of the people running the show? They already overscript everything to shit, so why's that burden suddenly on the wrestlers now? Most of those indy wrestlers are too stubborn to start all over again. They think they're already made cause of their reputation. I'm not saying Adam Cole should've shaved his head bald and became a manager by the way... But imagine telling someone like Roderick Strong "Okay, you're going to be doing a Car Sales Man gimmick"... Would he do it and try to get it over? Most likely not. But some random guy they signed through the Performance Centre might. And who knows, that Car Sales Man gimmick could be the next IRS. I see the advantages. Vinces vision of wrestling has and always will be the cartoony circus type version of wrestling we got in the 80s and early 90s. That's why we are seeing these new gimmicks on NXT. He didn't give a damn about "5 star matches" between two regular guys in black trunks. And personally speaking, the novelty of all that does wear off after a bit and you start missing and getting nostalgic over the way wrestling used to be with the vignettes and cheesy gimmicks. For every IRS that got over there were a dozen Goons, Bastion Boogers, TL Hoppers, Well Dunns, guys saddled bad gimmicks who were never given a chance to get over, management got a few chuckles and they jobbed for a few months and that was it. A bad gimmick is a bad gimmick, a more experienced talent will watch WWE programming and will know to ask 'Where is this going?' 'How does a used car salesman get up to the title scene?' with an eye on their long term prospects either in the company or beyond, while Johnny Footballman will go 'Hey. It'll get me on TV' and will get chewed up and spat out as a result. They signed these guys because if their reputation, because they had something audiences liked, if they can't capitalise on that, nine times out of ten then the problem is with them. Not the talent, them. Johnny footballman isn't going to be able to polish those turds any better, but he's cheaper and taller, and there are 30 people fresh out of college to replace him when he fails. |
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Post by Starshine on Oct 1, 2021 3:40:15 GMT -5
I mean, isn't coming up with compelling characters and stuff the job of the people running the show? They already overscript everything to shit, so why's that burden suddenly on the wrestlers now? Most of those indy wrestlers are too stubborn to start all over again. They think they're already made cause of their reputation. I'm not saying Adam Cole should've shaved his head bald and became a manager by the way... But imagine telling someone like Roderick Strong "Okay, you're going to be doing a Car Sales Man gimmick"... Would he do it and try to get it over? Most likely not. But some random guy they signed through the Performance Centre might. And who knows, that Car Sales Man gimmick could be the next IRS. I see the advantages. Vinces vision of wrestling has and always will be the cartoony circus type version of wrestling we got in the 80s and early 90s. That's why we are seeing these new gimmicks on NXT. He didn't give a damn about "5 star matches" between two regular guys in black trunks. And personally speaking, the novelty of all that does wear off after a bit and you start missing and getting nostalgic over the way wrestling used to be with the vignettes and cheesy gimmicks. What are you basing this on? They're being presented almost exactly as they were on the indies because that's the fan who NXT was trying to appeal to. There's a reason Trips kept doing those posed pics with these guys, he knew they had established credibility to add to the brand. Earlier on in the brand's life guys like Sami Zayn, Cesaro, Neville, were presented as if they were new acts without touching their history outside the company. But once Kevin Owens joined up they decided it was easier to play off their established name recognition and indie history and hence we get Samoa Joe, Shinsuke Nakamura, Bobby Roode, et al, coming into the brand as completely ready-made acts, in name and all. If you're blaming the talent for not presenting off the wall acts, then you just don't understand how WWE operates. If they were as stubborn as you seem to believe, they straight up wouldn't last long in WWE. They didn't sign Adam Cole to not be Adam Cole, and the same goes for any guy with similar name recognition. The reason it's different now is because the entire operational mindset behind the NXT brand has completely shifted. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 4:10:38 GMT -5
Most of those indy wrestlers are too stubborn to start all over again. They think they're already made cause of their reputation. I'm not saying Adam Cole should've shaved his head bald and became a manager by the way... But imagine telling someone like Roderick Strong "Okay, you're going to be doing a Car Sales Man gimmick"... Would he do it and try to get it over? Most likely not. But some random guy they signed through the Performance Centre might. And who knows, that Car Sales Man gimmick could be the next IRS. I see the advantages. Vinces vision of wrestling has and always will be the cartoony circus type version of wrestling we got in the 80s and early 90s. That's why we are seeing these new gimmicks on NXT. He didn't give a damn about "5 star matches" between two regular guys in black trunks. And personally speaking, the novelty of all that does wear off after a bit and you start missing and getting nostalgic over the way wrestling used to be with the vignettes and cheesy gimmicks. What are you basing this on? They're being presented almost exactly as they were on the indies because that's the fan who NXT was trying to appeal to. There's a reason Trips kept doing those posed pics with these guys, he knew they had established credibility to add to the brand. Earlier on in the brand's life guys like Sami Zayn, Cesaro, Neville, were presented as if they were new acts without touching their history outside the company. But once Kevin Owens joined up they decided it was easier to play off their established name recognition and indie history and hence we get Samoa Joe, Shinsuke Nakamura, Bobby Roode, et al, coming into the brand as completely ready-made acts, in name and all. If you're blaming the talent for not presenting off the wall acts, then you just don't understand how WWE operates. If they were as stubborn as you seem to believe, they straight up wouldn't last long in WWE. They didn't sign Adam Cole to not be Adam Cole, and the same goes for any guy with similar name recognition. The reason it's different now is because the entire operational mindset behind the NXT brand has completely shifted. I know that's what they did in NXT. I'm just giving perspective as to why Vince is changing it. Vince never cared for that business model. He wants unknown guys with athletic backgrounds who will have gimmicks and personalities. Whether you liked most of these indy guys or not, you can't deny that the majority of them only had workrate going for them. The creative team holds some blame but there's also guys who sound TERRIBLE when given the mic. |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 1, 2021 4:25:02 GMT -5
Remember when the WWE had an 'It's easier to teach a hot woman to wrestle than it is to make an average looking girl who can wrestle look hot' attitude when it came to recruitment? This is the return of that applied across the board. It won't kill them, but they'll burn through a lot of goodwill and money trying to make it work.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Oct 1, 2021 7:45:54 GMT -5
no the kiss of death is the refusal to do anything interesting at all
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
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Post by salz4life on Oct 1, 2021 8:06:42 GMT -5
No, but they have got to start hitting on their "homegrown talent" AND they need to get better creatively. The latter might be more important in the short term.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 1, 2021 9:05:53 GMT -5
They’ll still sign indy names from time to time but I definitely think going homegrown right now and changing NXT to a gimmick heavy show with unknowns is a positive step for the future of the company and the ability to develop stars.
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Post by joeiscool on Oct 1, 2021 9:41:08 GMT -5
Playing devils advocate here but isn't it up to the wrestler to carry it off? I mean we have Cool Kyle now but is he doing it justice? Look at Johnny Gargano in comparison, he is taking his nerdy Papa of The Way gimmick and making lemonade right now. A lot of the wrestler types are just not capable of giving anything other than straight lemon juice. But that's just an argument for playing to strengths. It's on the booker to put the performer in the best light possible; lots of successful wrestlers have suffered under ill-fitting gimmicks. It's not their fault if they're being pushed to stick with what isn't working. And this also goes to the point of not getting indy guys. The independent guys generally have all the same strengths. They all wrestle pretty well while they do decent ass kicker brooding promos. WWE is a variety show. If the comedy person gets hurt WWE is going to want someone who can do comedy takes their place. If you have newer people it will be easier to teach them how to be more flexible |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 1, 2021 10:28:53 GMT -5
But that's just an argument for playing to strengths. It's on the booker to put the performer in the best light possible; lots of successful wrestlers have suffered under ill-fitting gimmicks. It's not their fault if they're being pushed to stick with what isn't working. And this also goes to the point of not getting indy guys. The independent guys generally have all the same strengths. They all wrestle pretty well while they do decent ass kicker brooding promos. WWE is a variety show. If the comedy person gets hurt WWE is going to want someone who can do comedy takes their place. If you have newer people it will be easier to teach them how to be more flexible Does the WWE teach people to be more flexible though? A historical problem with the WWE is the guys they train struggle to adapt both in terms of character and ring work, with guys learning one match and one promo style. You'll have an easier time training someone who knows all the fundamentals that has shown they can play multiple gimmicks before you hired them to play a different character at short notice than you will someone with no experience of wrestling who's still not 100% on the very fundamentals who've been trained to portray one character for nearly all of that. They've got a head start on Johnny Footballman just because of that experience. If someone has all the wrestling fundamentals down prior to being signed, maybe they shouldn't keep wasting time retraining them to do things they already know how to do and focus more on getting them acting coaches, improv classes so they can become that tv ready jack of all trades. Also giving them better material to work with would go a long way. |
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