When Promotion Partnerships Go Bad

[Mozenrath]

I was thinking of wrestling companies that have had relationships, lending one another wrestlers or allowing some of their talent to work shows for one another freely. Currently, fans would probably associate these practices with NJPW's partnerships with ROH, CMLL, and RevPro that they had for years, or AEW's current relationships with NJPW, AAA, and some others like DDT and the like. Historically, WWF had a relationship with ECW, and had also done business with NJPW in the '80s, even if they became more reluctant over time to do anything that wasn't in-house.

In any case, such relationships often occur, but that mutual trust can be damaged. What are some examples you can think of where incidents put a relationship in jeopardy, or even outright ended it?

One of the most glaring examples I can think of would be when Vince Russo denigrated having to book a NJPW Junior Heavyweight title match on Nitro, with the kayfabe being that if Juventud wouldn't win it from that "clown", Jushin Thunder Liger, Russo would not help Juvi renew his visa and allow him to be deported. Juvi then won the match by hitting Liger with a tequila bottle.

Shockingly, NJPW was absolutely furious at this blatant disrespect, and in a week's time, Liger won the title back on another Nitro where Psicosis filled in for Juvi. Guerrera was said to have an arm injury, but I am not sure if that was legitimate, or if NJPW wasn't keen on him being involved at all.

What are some other examples that spring to mind?

[Natural Born Farmer]

Dirt sheets said that NJPW told TNA that Okada was someone they had big plans for and he needed to be protected while he made his excursion.

Instead he was given a borderline racist comedy gimmick and treated like shit.

Effectively ended their partnership for years.

[El Pollo Guerrera]

Big Japan and CZW had a cross-promotion thing in the early 2000s that ended with Zandig insulting BJPW management in the ring after a match and pulling everyone CZW out of any future shows. Has there been any explanation as to what happened behind-the-scenes?

[El Pollo Guerrera]

Also, when TNA ended their working relationship with ROH over the Feinstein scandal and whether-or-not Feinstein was still really running the promotion.

[BlackoutCreature]

In 1985, in an attempt to counter the national growth of the WWF, AWA hosted a show called SuperClash, which featured talent from the AWA, NWA (I assume Crockett guys) and WCCW. The show was a moderate success, but disagreements over the box office and how to split it, as well as rumors of NWA execs trying to sign talent from other promotions backstage while the show was happening, prevented any future business from being done between the groups and ultimately did more harm then good for any of them.

AWA tried again in 1987 with SuperClash III, this time featuring AWA, WCCW and the CWA (Memphis) talent. This event was a disaster with a mostly empty building and a non-existent buyrate. Plus the convoluted and unsatisfying finish to the Jerry Lawler-Kerry von Erich Title vs. Title match ended any remaining fan interest there was for the AWA and soured any interest that Memphis or Dallas would have for working with Verne Gagne again.

This did however lead to the formation of the USWA, a joint venture for the Memphis and Dallas promotions in 1989. This also fell apart about a year and change later, for various logistic reasons, when the Dallas office pulled out. Memphis continued to use the USWA name until it went out of business in 1996.

[Deleted]

TNA also pulled a similar stunt with the IWGP Tag Titles. Team 3D lost the titles in a tables match to British Invasion which was completely unsanctioned by New Japan. The reign was eventually recognized and Team 3D won the belts back soon after.

Team 3D would drop the belts at the 2010 January 4th WK show. A year after this was the terrible Jeff Hardy vs Naito match that did not help the relationship what so ever.

No wonder they were cold on Impact even when they were an entirely different company years later wanting to partner again.

[James Fabiano]

WCW I think upset All-Japan in 1989 when they pulled the bait and switch with the six-man tag team title match at that one Clash. Was supposed to be LOD and Tenryu vs. Sting, JYD, and Hayes, but they had the Varsity Club trap the faces and take the match over.

Then WCW again. This time with NJPW and switching the IWGP Jr. title to Juventud AND using the tequila bottle finish.

[thirteen3]

Nov 11, 2021 11:38:00 GMT -5 El Pollo Guerrera said:

Big Japan and CZW had a cross-promotion thing in the early 2000s that ended with Zandig insulting BJPW management in the ring after a match and pulling everyone CZW out of any future shows. Has there been any explanation as to what happened behind-the-scenes?

Zandig lied about how far a reach CZW had in the US, (telling BIg Japan they had a national TV deal, but didn't) and clearly had some poor quality workers. I think this happened not long after Wifebeater nearly crippled Matsunaga, ending his career. Now Zandig says that Big Japan then started shafting him on pay and even went as far to bust into an office meeting demanding more money...so says him.

[El Pollo Guerrera]

Nov 11, 2021 12:10:11 GMT -5 thirteen3 said:

Nov 11, 2021 11:38:00 GMT -5 El Pollo Guerrera said:

Big Japan and CZW had a cross-promotion thing in the early 2000s that ended with Zandig insulting BJPW management in the ring after a match and pulling everyone CZW out of any future shows. Has there been any explanation as to what happened behind-the-scenes?

Zandig lied about how far a reach CZW had in the US, (telling BIg Japan they had a national TV deal, but didn't) and clearly had some poor quality workers. I think this happened not long after Wifebeater nearly crippled Matsunaga, ending his career. Now Zandig says that Big Japan then started shafting him on pay and even went as far to bust into an office meeting demanding more money...so says him.

It was Ryuji Yamakawa and not Matsunaga that was injured.

[Mozenrath]

Some good ones, for sure.

The Enzo mess at the joint ROH/NJPW MSG show probably qualifies. It's one of those situations where the pandemic and now ROH's restructuring probably means we'll never know how much this did or did not actually sour the relationship between ROH and NJPW, since collaboration was going to likely be limited after this time regardless, but the video where Tama Tonga just throws the ROH tag title belt across the room as hard as he could in a post-match press conference probably isn't a positive indication.

I get that ROH wanted to create buzz, but then, just have Enzo show up in the match Bully Ray was already having if you want them to brawl and do their goofy "shoot" they were trying to get over. Doing it during the tag title match just turned a big match into something of a clusterf***, especially if rumors are true about NJPW being given know indication this was going to happen. No wonder they felt disrespected, if so.

[johnnyk9]

Heyman/Todd Gordon

[Deleted]

Nov 11, 2021 11:33:38 GMT -5 Natural Born Farmer said:

Dirt sheets said that TNA was told that Okada was someone they had big plans for and needed to be protected while he made his excursion.

Instead he was given a borderline racist comedy gimmick and treated like shit.

Effectively ended their partnership for years.

That and Them pulling a WCW and having Team 3D loses the IWGP Tag Title titles without the permission of NJPW. Also Jeff Hardy wrestling a NJPW show while high as a kite didn't help either.

[buckethead]

Nov 11, 2021 11:55:06 GMT -5 BlackoutCreature said:

In 1985, in an attempt to counter the national growth of the WWF, AWA hosted a show called SuperClash, which featured talent from the AWA, NWA (I assume Crockett guys) and WCCW. The show was a moderate success, but disagreements over the box office and how to split it, as well as rumors of NWA execs trying to sign talent from other promotions backstage while the show was happening, prevented any future business from being done between the groups and ultimately did more harm then good for any of them.

It was also a terrible card. Why bother having such an event if you're not going to have any dream matches?

Main event matches

Flair vs Martel

Road Warriors vs The Von Erichs


Then have matches like Sgt. Slaughter vs Magnum TA.

They put in zero effort. Hell...the main event (Martel vs Hansen) was two minutes long and a double countout.

[BlackoutCreature]

Nov 13, 2021 21:27:29 GMT -5 buckethead said:

Nov 11, 2021 11:55:06 GMT -5 BlackoutCreature said:

In 1985, in an attempt to counter the national growth of the WWF, AWA hosted a show called SuperClash, which featured talent from the AWA, NWA (I assume Crockett guys) and WCCW. The show was a moderate success, but disagreements over the box office and how to split it, as well as rumors of NWA execs trying to sign talent from other promotions backstage while the show was happening, prevented any future business from being done between the groups and ultimately did more harm then good for any of them.

It was also a terrible card. Why bother having such an event if you're not going to have any dream matches?

Main event matches

Flair vs Martel

Road Warriors vs The Von Erichs


Then have matches like Sgt. Slaughter vs Magnum TA.

They put in zero effort. Hell...the main event (Martel vs Hansen) was two minutes long and a double countout.

While this is true from a fan perspective, I don't think any of the promotions themselves cared about it. Heck, trying to do a dream match like Flair vs. Martel would've only caused even more stress between the promotions as they argue about things like finishes and such. Look what happened when they did (sorta) go that route at SuperClash III. I imagine everybody probably preferred just keeping their guys separate on the show.

[Mozenrath]

Nov 13, 2021 21:47:47 GMT -5 BlackoutCreature said:

Nov 13, 2021 21:27:29 GMT -5 buckethead said:

It was also a terrible card. Why bother having such an event if you're not going to have any dream matches?

Main event matches

Flair vs Martel

Road Warriors vs The Von Erichs


Then have matches like Sgt. Slaughter vs Magnum TA.

They put in zero effort. Hell...the main event (Martel vs Hansen) was two minutes long and a double countout.

While this is true from a fan perspective, I don't think any of the promotions themselves cared about it. Heck, trying to do a dream match like Flair vs. Martel would've only caused even more stress between the promotions as they argue about things like finishes and such. Look what happened when they did (sorta) go that route at SuperClash III. I imagine everybody probably preferred just keeping their guys separate on the show.

Probably so, which just kind of makes me wonder why these types of shows didn't do something like "Top Face from A and Top Face from B team up against midcard heels both promotions are cool with having lose. Top Face A gets the pin, but Top Face B runs the heels off with a chair when they try to jump him post-match." Feels like that'd be something crowd pleasing that serves both masters, though I also get even that probably would bring a lot of egos out.

[Sephiroth]

Vince Russo booked Justin Thunder Liger to drop an NJPW title to Juventud Guerrero on a WCW show. New Japan cut off their relationship with WCW for it and don’t acknowledge the title switch to this day.

[Deleted]

Nov 11, 2021 11:33:38 GMT -5 Natural Born Farmer said:

Dirt sheets said that NJPW told TNA that Okada was someone they had big plans for and he needed to be protected while he made his excursion.

Instead he was given a borderline racist comedy gimmick and treated like shit.

Effectively ended their partnership for years.

Chatter at the time was that NJPW knew (or at least suspected) what awaited Okada in TNA and that was why they sent him; to keep/make him humble and possibly to sour him on working for American companies again.

[Natural Born Farmer]

Nov 11, 2021 18:33:46 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Some good ones, for sure.

The Enzo mess at the joint ROH/NJPW MSG show probably qualifies. It's one of those situations where the pandemic and now ROH's restructuring probably means we'll never know how much this did or did not actually sour the relationship between ROH and NJPW, since collaboration was going to likely be limited after this time regardless, but the video where Tama Tonga just throws the ROH tag title belt across the room as hard as he could in a post-match press conference probably isn't a positive indication.

I get that ROH wanted to create buzz, but then, just have Enzo show up in the match Bully Ray was already having if you want them to brawl and do their goofy "shoot" they were trying to get over. Doing it during the tag title match just turned a big match into something of a clusterf***, especially if rumors are true about NJPW being given know indication this was going to happen. No wonder they felt disrespected, if so.

Did Enzo & Cass ever even show up in ROH again?

Possibly blew up the relationship over a couple talents even they apparently didn't believe in much.

[Mozenrath]

Nov 14, 2021 8:23:56 GMT -5 Natural Born Farmer said:

Nov 11, 2021 18:33:46 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Some good ones, for sure.

The Enzo mess at the joint ROH/NJPW MSG show probably qualifies. It's one of those situations where the pandemic and now ROH's restructuring probably means we'll never know how much this did or did not actually sour the relationship between ROH and NJPW, since collaboration was going to likely be limited after this time regardless, but the video where Tama Tonga just throws the ROH tag title belt across the room as hard as he could in a post-match press conference probably isn't a positive indication.

I get that ROH wanted to create buzz, but then, just have Enzo show up in the match Bully Ray was already having if you want them to brawl and do their goofy "shoot" they were trying to get over. Doing it during the tag title match just turned a big match into something of a clusterf***, especially if rumors are true about NJPW being given know indication this was going to happen. No wonder they felt disrespected, if so.

Did Enzo & Cass ever even show up in ROH again?

Possibly blew up the relationship over a couple talents even they apparently didn't believe in much.

Not that I'm aware of, no. I think the extreme negative reactions to it convinced ROH it wasn't worth it, though it honestly just kind of makes it worse. At least using them again would have made it have some sort of point.

[kingoftheindies]

Nov 14, 2021 8:34:00 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Nov 14, 2021 8:23:56 GMT -5 Natural Born Farmer said:

Did Enzo & Cass ever even show up in ROH again?

Possibly blew up the relationship over a couple talents even they apparently didn't believe in much.

Not that I'm aware of, no. I think the extreme negative reactions to it convinced ROH it wasn't worth it, though it honestly just kind of makes it worse. At least using them again would have made it have some sort of point.

Pretty much this. ROH was hoping 6o get some buzz and were shocked with how negative the reaction was so things were put on hold. Then Cass had his mental and physical health issues around this time as well I believe.