Warrior -vs- HHH as a squash match

[wgdj]

So I've been listening to the audiobook of Titan Shattered while driving this week, and today the topic of WMXII was covered.

The author recounts a number of people (Brisco, Cornette, Triple H himself) who felt that the Warrior/Hunter Hearst Helmsley match should have been a competitive back and forth battle, and it's made clear that these people felt Warrior was being selfish for insisting it be a squash match. Triple H went so far as to say it ruined the experience of his first WrestleMania.

It's become popular to bash Warrior for being selfish over this, but is that really fair?

In terms of kayfabe, anything but a squash would have made little sense.

HHH had been in the WWF for less than a year by the time of WMXII. Going by Cagematch, he had faced a number of opponents, sometimes winning and sometimes losing. He had squashed jobbers on the weekly shows, had defeated lower midcarders, and lost a series of matches to Duke Droese in the leadup to WM. This was his first WrestleMania.

The Ultimate Warrior, on the other hand, had headlined four major PPVs (five if you include Survivor Series '90), was a former WWF champion, two time IC champion, had defeated Hogan cleanly, retired Randy Savage, squashed Andre in a series of matches, and had run through a magnitude of big names during his run.

How on earth, even with him having been gone for three and a half years, would it have made sense for Warrior to have had any trouble at all destroying HHH?!

[sarkerpolseng]

Triple H was an up and coming star, with a very protected finisher.

Warrior completely no sold the move, and pinned him with knees on his chest seconds later on WrestleMania.

But a squash match on a show like Superstars would be against a jobber nobody, who would get zero offense in.

[Mozenrath]

It's one of those things that is objectively bad booking, but cathartic to people who have issues with Triple H for one reason or another.

It's at least less ghoulish than "quad tear is the funniest punchline devised by humankind" smark humor of the past, so, eh.

[chazraps]

Yes, it's fair to bash Warrior over this. Next question.

[Wieners=$$$]

Ultimately, no pun intended, did this match kill Hunter's character or his momentum he earned at that point; no.

However, did this match lead to Warrior having a legendary run in '96; also, no.

Could Hunter have been elevated had the match gone longer even if it still lead to him taking a lose; most likely. I think this last question is the important one, as Warrior absolutely should have won in his return, but with '96 being a big year for establishing new Superstars, not much would have been gained had he squashed everyone.

I think this set the tone for this Warrior run in the company. He already was known for being difficult to work with, and extremely stubborn during his last WWF run.

Being gone for over 3 years did little to change his attitude, and I think it would've been worse had he stayed throughout '96. '96 needed to showcase fresh talent like Mankind, Vader, Goldust, etc. I shutter to think how these iconic characters would've faired had Warrior stuck around trying to negotiate burying them.

Had Warrior been as popular as Hulk Hogan, sure the argument could be made, but he wasn't, and history is representing him adequately IMO.

[jason1980s]

Warrior was a big star and he had to win the match. Hunter was the SD Jones of that Wrestlemania. He could be interchanged with any lower card bad guy like Isaac Yankem. The fact that he himself became such a big star has no bearing on the match. He had no feud at the time and someone in power thought that the best he could do to make this PPV was a loss to Warrior. At the time he was Jones, George Wells, Paul Roma-just a body with no fan following that could lose to a much bigger star in a few minutes.

[Jindrak Mark]

People find it funny because the guy who would have power a few years later got squashed but objectively it was ridiculous. They could have had him squash Barry Horowitz. The whole draw was simply Warrior returning anyway. It didn't matter who he was facing so why have someone you've been building for 8 months get killed like that?

Picture the same scenario today. An older, not particularly mobile star who hasn't been seen in a few years (let's say Batista) returns at Wrestlemania against a new guy whose been really protected for almost a year and only taken a few losses to top stars (let's say Damien Priest). Then Batista completely no sells Priest's finisher and destroys him in a minute, pinning him with one foot on his chest. The live fans might go along with it but I guarantee the IWC would be furious. Hell, even if it wasn't a squash and an actual competitive match a lot of people would still complain.

[Deleted]

Triple H was fighting Garbage Men and Hog Farmers... Warrior is the kayfabe greatest wrestler of all time. He was a unbeatable god.

You want a back and forth match? I've never understood this.

They needed a semi hot midcard heel to do the job. Triple H didn't really lose any mystique and was moved into a feud with Marc Mero.

As for Warrior they had no idea what to do with him after that, but people paid money to see Warrior wreck a fool at Mania and that match was a success.

[sungod2020]

As a young mark who normally went along with whatever WWF was throwing at me during that time, I had absolutely no problem with how the match went. Hell, I was ecstatic to see the Greenwich Blud Blood get owned in one and a half minutes. He was a hated heel who was on a long undefeated streak just prior to this, so seeing him beat so easily was a breath of fresh air. I even marked when Warrior no sold his pedigree. The live crowd certainly agreed with me.

When it comes to the business side of things, I don't think it was that big of a deal. If you remember the build up to the match, it was all about Warrior's return, Helmsley was barely even mentioned. Short term or long term, it didn't make a difference as he was still primed for a push and got the IC title later in the year, and if it wasn't for the Curtain Call, he would've been that year's King of The Ring.

I really don't think that match was Wrestlecrap worthy. Ultimate Warrior's 1996 run however was a whole nother story.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2022 13:14:52 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

People find it funny because the guy who would have power a few years later got squashed but objectively it was ridiculous. They could have had him squash Barry Horowitz. The whole draw was simply Warrior returning anyway. It didn't matter who he was facing so why have someone you've been building for 8 months get killed like that?

Picture the same scenario today. An older, not particularly mobile star who hasn't been seen in a few years (let's say Batista) returns at Wrestlemania against a new guy whose been really protected for almost a year and only taken a few losses to top stars (let's say Damien Priest). Then Batista completely no sells Priest's finisher and destroys him in a minute, pinning him with one foot on his chest. The live fans might go along with it but I guarantee the IWC would be furious. Hell, even if it wasn't a squash and an actual competitive match a lot of people would still complain.

Batista was a hoss but he was never a world beater like Warrior, Goldberg or Lesnar. 

Time felt like it moved differently back then but Warrior was only gone for four years at that point.

It would be like... 

Instead of Rock vs. Goldberg in 2003, its John Cena vs. Goldberg

Instread of Brock vs. Cena in 2012, it's Brock Lesnar vs. The Miz. 

None of these matches need to go over three minutes. 

The Miz and Cena would still be fine. 



 

[johnnyk9]

I loved the Warrior’s return at WM 12 the way HHH put him over was brilliant HHH has no reason to be bitter about the match change it was perfect for what it was

[Wieners=$$$]

I still do not understand what they wanted from Warrior in '96?

I know Vince wanted names to help the product after '95, but Warrior was such a problematic personality, I cannot imagine McMahon's plan.

I said in my previous post that '96 was about establishing new talent, and it got me thinking, which talent was to be elevated by bringing in Warrior?

Shawn was already lined up to be the guy for '96, so why was Warrior needed? To help build Vader?

As shit as his WCW run was, at least they had a definitive plan for him. Vince brought him back, gave him Hunter and then... had him, um... Lawler feud... then?

[GuyOfOwnage]

Jan 21, 2022 16:02:21 GMT -5 Wieners=$$$ said:

I still do not understand what they wanted from Warrior in '96?

I know Vince wanted names to help the product after '95, but Warrior was such a problematic personality, I cannot imagine McMahon's plan.

I said in my previous post that '96 was about establishing new talent, and it got me thinking, which talent was to be elevated by bringing in Warrior?

Shawn was already lined up to be the guy for '96, so why was Warrior needed? To help build Vader?

As shit as his WCW run was, at least they had a definitive plan for him. Vince brought him back, gave him Hunter and then... had him, um... Lawler feud... then?

I've always heard rumors that they eventually wanted to do a Warrior/HBK face vs face "respect" match, but can you even imagine Warrior and '96 HBK trying to put a match together?

[msc]

It was sacrificing one of their most protected heel midcarders for the sake of a short term pop. It's something that sums up WWE even today. Especially today.

At the time HHH had been on a long undefeated streak, just taken Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels to the limit on TV, and lasted 50 minutes in the Royal Rumble. It made the entire roster look like shit, that this guy, who was positioned as clearly rising to the upper mid card (and he was in line for King of the Ring months later at that point in time) could get killed by a guy who hadn't wrestled in 3 years.

[rnrk supports BLM]

Jan 21, 2022 13:14:52 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

a new guy whose been really protected for almost a year and only taken a few losses to top stars (let's say Damien Priest).

That's nothing like how Hunter Hearst Helmsley was booked, though. His big feuds to date had been against Henry O. Godwinn and Duke "The Dumpster" Droese. He got to win the Hog Farm match but got thrown into the slop by Godwinn right afterwards anyway so the segment could still close with him selling being humiliated.

[Jindrak Mark]

Jan 21, 2022 16:14:26 GMT -5 GuyOfOwnage said:

Jan 21, 2022 16:02:21 GMT -5 Wieners=$$$ said:

I still do not understand what they wanted from Warrior in '96?

I know Vince wanted names to help the product after '95, but Warrior was such a problematic personality, I cannot imagine McMahon's plan.

I said in my previous post that '96 was about establishing new talent, and it got me thinking, which talent was to be elevated by bringing in Warrior?

Shawn was already lined up to be the guy for '96, so why was Warrior needed? To help build Vader?

As shit as his WCW run was, at least they had a definitive plan for him. Vince brought him back, gave him Hunter and then... had him, um... Lawler feud... then?

I've always heard rumors that they eventually wanted to do a Warrior/HBK face vs face "respect" match, but can you even imagine Warrior and '96 HBK trying to put a match together?

96 Shawn selling Warrior's clothesline routine would have been something else. It might even have been funnier than Hogan/Michaels ended up being. And Shawn reacting to Warrior's nonsensical promos and sarcastically putting him over. It would have been fascinating to see.

[Wieners=$$$]

Jan 21, 2022 16:14:26 GMT -5 GuyOfOwnage said:

Jan 21, 2022 16:02:21 GMT -5 Wieners=$$$ said:

I still do not understand what they wanted from Warrior in '96?

I know Vince wanted names to help the product after '95, but Warrior was such a problematic personality, I cannot imagine McMahon's plan.

I said in my previous post that '96 was about establishing new talent, and it got me thinking, which talent was to be elevated by bringing in Warrior?

Shawn was already lined up to be the guy for '96, so why was Warrior needed? To help build Vader?

As shit as his WCW run was, at least they had a definitive plan for him. Vince brought him back, gave him Hunter and then... had him, um... Lawler feud... then?

I've always heard rumors that they eventually wanted to do a Warrior/HBK face vs face "respect" match, but can you even imagine Warrior and '96 HBK trying to put a match together?

If it meant Warrior having to sell a punch from Jose Lothario, I would have appreciated it.

Seriously, Warrior's presence in '96 WWF is one of the more peculiar things about wrestling in that time period.

[Citizen Snips Has Left]

A year later, the Road Warriors returned and had a competitive match with the Headbangers that ended in a no-contest. That was the first step in the legendary Road Warriors being just a couple guys for that run.

[jason1980s]

Jan 21, 2022 16:23:35 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

That's nothing like how Hunter Hearst Helmsley was booked, though. His big feuds to date had been against Henry O. Godwinn and Duke "The Dumpster" Droese. He got to win the Hog Farm match but got thrown into the slop by Godwinn right afterwards anyway so the segment could still close with him selling being humiliated.

I don't remember him being protected either. He went right from the Godwinn feud one PPV to starting the Duke feud the next month at the Rumble and though he did win at the In Your House, he wasn't exactly prepped for a bigger feud in the next few months. The feud he would next be in would be with Marc Mero and fresh from WCW with a big contract, Hunter wasn't going to win that one.
As for why Vince wanted Warrior at the time, his biggest success came from WWF and he had been away for a little while and I'm sure Vince liked how big a draw Warrior was and wanted him to be back with the company for a larger position. Those 3+ years away seemed like 10 years at the time. 1996 Warrior seemed pretty out of place.

[Deleted]

It made sense for the Warrior to no sell the move.

HHH was a jabroni at this point. He had no business looking credible against the jacked up Warrior.

If this was prime HHH? Yeah, it would be bullshit. But we were talking about Hunter Hearst Helmsley here.

Warriors whole gimmick was squashes for the most part. It worked and made sense at the time.