At what point did WWE stop caring about the product?

[Zen411]

This is speaking as a lifelong wwf/wwe fan who grew up with Hulks Rock and Wrestling and Hulkamania through attitude era and beyond. Never wavered to wcw or ecw or tna in favor of wwf/wwe.

I can now watch an episode of Dynamite and be far more entertained and excited about tuning in next week. Every moment is carefully crafted to engage the viewer to get you interested and not miss a moment. 40 years of lifelong fandom and I am finally preferring one promotion to my beloved "e" and it makes me sad.

When did wwe stop caring about their product? So formulaic, so going through the motions. Almost an intent on wrecking developmental talents honed in nxt. Can't name a true surprise that got fans invested and jaws on rhe floor in years. Going to the well with washed up stars again and again. Is it truly all vinces fault? Bruce and Michael Hayes and John Laurinaitis? What happened to the magic and the shows that made you glued to uour television?

[Deleted]

I'm not sure when they stopped caring about the product but I am sure that they severely stopped caring about people's opinions the moment the Reigns mega-push didn't work like they wanted circa Rumble/WM 2015. A year and a half earlier the company went back on their plans and changed them due to how the fans reacted to Bryan and sure, they didn't wanna do it, they were super stubborn but they eventually caved in. With Reigns however, it didn't matter what we wanted. They stayed with their plans and pushed him hard for years regardless of everyone else because they knew they'd be able to get away with it.

Since then that's only continued.

[Deleted]

The moment WCW folded.

[polarbearpete]

I don’t think they ever stopped caring about the product. Vince cares almost too much, which is why he works insane hours and is constantly writing and rewriting shows to the last minute. That process might be what is stifling the creativity of the product to a large extent.

I don’t think saying they don’t do big surprises and moments is on the mark, though. That’s what they’re still the best at , delivering “moments” rather than long-form compelling storylines.

[Legion]

Once Vince took the company public and was the only game in town.

Once he no longer actually had true control because he has people over his shoulder questioning and checking, and had to appease the stockholders more and more (and this has got worse over the years as he has sold more and more stock) he couldn't ever do anything too risky as everything he does has to now be about generating income.

It doesnt matter if they have a new talent they could push, if an older talent is a proven money maker, best use them as money is all that matters.

The brand is now bigger than the stars, the brand is all that matters because the brand is all the shareholders care about as long as the brand is making money - and the brand is making more money than ever, so why bother changing anything?

Tony doesn't have that problem and can do basically whatever he wants, as he is the bankroll. While I think AEW has a host of it's own problem, it at least feels fresh because it's stars are generally those who havent been around for years and years in the mainstream, and when it does use older people, it's usually not at the expense of anyone else - but as has been shown, it is struggling with the uphill battle of crossing in to the mainstream and get new eyes because WWE has been so successful in becoming The Brand in wrestling.

It's a similar issue, ironically enough, that Vince faced when he tried to do the XFL. He attracted some viewers who are sick of the same old, same old and wanting something new but in the end, he couldnt upstage The Brand. People love their Brand - loyalty is built in for a lot of people.

[Mecca]

Feb 10, 2022 13:00:15 GMT -5 @hedm2005 said:

The moment WCW folded.

They were still trying after..

As soon as they realized all the money was in Mattel, TV etc so they signed a butt load of licensing, sponsorship and huge TV deals that are very contingent on them being very bland and PG. When they realized those things they found out they no longer needed fans to care to be a viable product.

It's literally the day they realized their corporate deals are more important than every fan in attendance or watching. So basically when they went public and had shareholders.

[Urethra Franklin]

I think it’s not so much no longer caring about the product as much as the WWE is confused as to what it wants to be.

It seems sometimes like the “Wrestling” portion of WWE is an association they don’t really like. The company fancies itself as an entertainment provider to rival the likes of Netflix or Disney.

They very explicitly want to get the message out that they’re not just wrestling, which is why they’re desperate for mainstream press and gear their programming and booking decisions towards getting as many eyeballs as possible, rather than satisfying wrestling fans.

[Zen411]

Feb 10, 2022 13:02:17 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I don’t think they ever stopped caring about the product. Vince cares almost too much, which is why he works insane hours and is constantly writing and rewriting shows to the last minute. That process might be what is stifling the creativity of the product to a large extent.

I don’t think saying they don’t do big surprises and moments is on the mark, though. That’s what they’re still the best at , delivering “moments” rather than long-form compelling storylines.

As far as real surprises, I am not sure many come to mind for me. Brock returning in 2012 but that was 10 years ago. Seth turning on the Shield. I'm seriously trying to think of more....

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

Probably took a long time but the tipping point was probably Vince realizing that networks were so desperate for live content they'd pay him f*** you money no matter how bad the quality. If he has no reason to care, why should he?

[The Dark Order Inferno]

During the reign of terror. Ratings and buyrates were tanking due to Hunter's overpush, and Pat Patterson, one of the few people Vince listened to told him as much. Hunter's push continued and Pat was pushed toward the door. Making the son in law into the face of the company was more important than the quality of the show. It's the same era that saw the WWE beginning to run without a midcard as only the Hunter dominated Raw main event mattered.

[polarbearpete]

Feb 10, 2022 13:09:04 GMT -5 Zen411 said:

Feb 10, 2022 13:02:17 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I don’t think they ever stopped caring about the product. Vince cares almost too much, which is why he works insane hours and is constantly writing and rewriting shows to the last minute. That process might be what is stifling the creativity of the product to a large extent.

I don’t think saying they don’t do big surprises and moments is on the mark, though. That’s what they’re still the best at , delivering “moments” rather than long-form compelling storylines.

As far as real surprises, I am not sure many come to mind for me. Brock returning in 2012 but that was 10 years ago. Seth turning on the Shield. I'm seriously trying to think of more....

Edge returning at the Rumble 2020.
Christian at the Rumble 2021.
Goldberg beating Lesnar at Survivor Series.
Rousey debut.
Streak ending.
McIntyre eliminating Brock.
Cena returning at MITB 2021.
Rollins briefcase cash-in during the Mania main event.
Becky returning at Summerslam.
The Funhouse match with Cena.
Rey’s return in 2018 was genuinely surprising.
Heyman sitting next to Reigns in 2020.
Lesnar returning at Summerslam last year.
Several NXT main roster debuts.

[Nosnorb]

Feb 10, 2022 13:23:34 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Feb 10, 2022 13:09:04 GMT -5 Zen411 said:

As far as real surprises, I am not sure many come to mind for me. Brock returning in 2012 but that was 10 years ago. Seth turning on the Shield. I'm seriously trying to think of more....

Edge returning at the Rumble 2020.
Christian at the Rumble 2021.
Goldberg beating Lesnar at Survivor Series.
Rousey debut.
Streak ending.
McIntyre eliminating Brock.
Cena returning at MITB 2021.
Rollins briefcase cash-in during the Mania main event.
Becky returning at Summerslam.
The Funhouse match with Cena.
Rey’s return in 2018 was genuinely surprising.
Heyman sitting next to Reigns in 2020.
Lesnar returning at Summerslam last year.

I would add Sting at Survivor Series 2014 and AJ Styles in the 2016 RR to that list. Far less welcome would be Jinder Mahal winning the number one contenders match on Smackdown. Hell, Jinder even winning a match at that point would have been a shock, let alone one that got him a title match on PPV.

[CeilingFan]

2018.

[Zen411]

I think I miss when guys could speak from the heart instead of delivering carefully scripted promos. Commentary wasn't really lines being fed over the headset almost entirely. Things feel safe now. Sterile. Stagnant. Written by Hollywood comedy and soap opera writers. Overanalyzed by Vince who lives in a bubble and apart from current trends. Overproduced and safe.

[Dub H]

It goes through level but the point I feel like "yep i`m done, nothing is gonna change" is when Charlotte was added to the WM match of Becky vs Rousey

[Bo Rida]

The moment Kofi got squashed and Cain Vasquez walked out.

Any lingering sense of trying to create the best product week to week went, they had their TV deal, now only occasional moments and whatever the Saudis wanted mattered.

Reinforced by the HiaC DQ shortly after.

Many declines in quality before that but I still think they cared.

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2022 13:04:43 GMT -5 Mecca said:

Feb 10, 2022 13:00:15 GMT -5 @hedm2005 said:

The moment WCW folded.

They were still trying after..

As soon as they realized all the money was in Mattel, TV etc so they signed a butt load of licensing, sponsorship and huge TV deals that are very contingent on them being very bland and PG. When they realized those things they found out they no longer needed fans to care to be a viable product.

It's literally the day they realized their corporate deals are more important than every fan in attendance or watching. So basically when they went public and had shareholders.

That's the non-snarky answer that pretty well nails it.

The WWE happens to make live programming in the era where networks will give you an obscene amount of money for it, as it's the only thing keeping them relevant in the era of streaming.

Factor in video games, licensing deals, and the fact that WWE has truly gone global... well, we the fans frankly ain't shit, at the moment.

That isn't to say that the WWE is bullet proof, as they're no longer the only major player in wrestling and they've been putting a bullet in their own goodwill for almost a decade now.

But on the whole? Doesn't matter if we the fans are happy, what matters is if the outside investors are happy.

[Deleted]

I would say the last decent shirts were the original maroon Yes, Punk BITW, Nexus, and Rise Above Hate.

It seems like after that timeframe they stopped trying.



Edit: I thought the thread title was at what point WWE Shop stopped caring about their products, lol.

I still got a like anyway.

[Mecca]

Feb 10, 2022 14:14:08 GMT -5 @hedm2005 said:

Feb 10, 2022 13:04:43 GMT -5 Mecca said:

They were still trying after..

As soon as they realized all the money was in Mattel, TV etc so they signed a butt load of licensing, sponsorship and huge TV deals that are very contingent on them being very bland and PG. When they realized those things they found out they no longer needed fans to care to be a viable product.

It's literally the day they realized their corporate deals are more important than every fan in attendance or watching. So basically when they went public and had shareholders.

That's the non-snarky answer that pretty well nails it.

The WWE happens to make live programming in the era where networks will give you an obscene amount of money for it, as it's the only thing keeping them relevant in the era of streaming.

Factor in video games, licensing deals, and the fact that WWE has truly gone global... well, we the fans frankly ain't shit, at the moment.

That isn't to say that the WWE is bullet proof, as they're no longer the only major player in wrestling and they've been putting a bullet in their own goodwill for almost a decade now.

But on the whole? Doesn't matter if we the fans are happy, what matters is if the outside investors are happy.

It also helps them that they literally had 20 years to be the only game in town. They get casual walk up fans that no one else in the business will get. My son got back from the Royal Rumble and said he ran into several people who asked why he was in town and he told them and they said "Oh is that here, I use to watch maybe I'll go with my family" and started looking at their phone. WWE basically has past goodwill and 20 years of running unopposed that get people to buy tickets when they're in town..

Now most of the time those people likely don't return after doing it once but they're very lucky they still have that.

[Terry McConkey]

I think that when they brought in Nick Khan, it was the acceleration of declining product quality. When you keep releasing great talents to "save money", you're just tanking your product and driving fans away.