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Post by Jindrak Mark on Feb 11, 2022 11:32:22 GMT -5
The sad thing is Vince does care. He cares a lot. All those stories about him re-writing shows hours before they go on the air? If he didn't care he wouldn't be doing stuff like that.
It's not that he doesn't care. He's just too old/burned out and past his prime. His legacy is secure. He's going to go down as the greatest wrestling promoter ever but he's completely un-willing to retire or hand over the reigns.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2022 11:52:01 GMT -5
WWE still cares about the product, I think those in charge have just lost touch with what makes a successful promotion. Or, more likely, as others have said, the company cares more about the product being appealing to advertisers, sponsors, toy companies, and Wall Street than to wrestling fans.
For me, personally, the line of demarcation of WWE's product quality is Brock Lesnar becoming a championship contender rather than a special attraction in 2014. For me, Brock Lesnar's post-2014 run is the worst thing in the entire history of professional wrestling, and is indicative of WWE's shift toward an emphasis on what television networks and advertisers consider "successful" at the expense of presenting a competent, cohesive product for the fans who watch week-to-week. The show has, more or less consistently, been built around a mostly absent, part timer for going on a decade now, largely, I think, because the TV Networks want Brock to be featured despite his clear unwillingness to fully commit to wrestling. It sucks.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2022 12:15:58 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between "not caring about the product" and "not caring about how the fans feel about the product." I'd say the latter probably started around 2001 when we had a months long mega-angle that was essentially Vince taking a victory lap over his conquered adversaries. That isn't to say it was a consistent trend either, but that was probably the start of everything.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 11, 2022 12:18:44 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between "not caring about the product" and "not caring about how the fans feel about the product." I'd say the latter probably started around 2001 when we had a months long mega-angle that was essentially Vince taking a victory lap over his conquered adversaries. That isn't to say it was a consistent trend either, but that was probably the start of everything. There's also that what Vince considers "The Product" isn't the same as what the Audience considers "The Product". Hence the constant trying to be "more than just a wrestling business".
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Mecca
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Post by Mecca on Feb 11, 2022 12:20:04 GMT -5
Vince thinks he's the guy he was in 1997 that made good decisions to save his business, in reality he's just just Verne Gagne with more money. Vince will always think his way is the right way no matter the results, the entire crowd could shit on a segment and they'll just talk about stock prices and tv deals.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 11, 2022 12:23:31 GMT -5
Gotta agree with something said before and something I brought up in a thread about the Rumble: I don't think people can fully comprehend how important Pat Patterson was to the WWF's success over the years, because he was often the big creative voice that could bring all the disparate elements of a story or arc together into a working whole. I can't claim to be a fan of WWE's product nearly any time in the last nearly 20 years, but Patterson was capable of at least steering a reasonably consistent creative ship.
I think the big thing is that they just don't feel like a wrestling show anymore, and haven't for awhile. There's so much essential basic booking 101 that they flagrantly ignore, or just bare minimum requirements they meet, and it's all stuff that nearly any other promotion wouldn't be caught dead doing, but they press on, anyway. Shit just happens, and they get their occasional big feeling "moment", but there's not a lot working beneath the hood, even though their creative process sounds like a constant state of flux, chaos, and infinite moving parts.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Feb 11, 2022 14:39:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure when they stopped caring about the product but I am sure that they severely stopped caring about people's opinions the moment the Reigns mega-push didn't work like they wanted circa Rumble/WM 2015. A year and a half earlier the company went back on their plans and changed them due to how the fans reacted to Bryan and sure, they didn't wanna do it, they were super stubborn but they eventually caved in. With Reigns however, it didn't matter what we wanted. They stayed with their plans and pushed him hard for years regardless of everyone else because they knew they'd be able to get away with it. Since then that's only continued. This reminds me of your take that I vibed with in the Royal Rumble 2015 thread: that the 2015 Rumble sucks partially because you can see every gear turning, that it's not just bad booking, it's bad booking that is visibly booking and not a story or a contest. I can't help but wonder if that was a breaking point for WWE even trying to tell a story to get where they were going, rather than just going there anyway without wasting all that effort on trying to elicit the right response.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Feb 11, 2022 15:54:01 GMT -5
Gotta agree with something said before and something I brought up in a thread about the Rumble: I don't think people can fully comprehend how important Pat Patterson was to the WWF's success over the years, because he was often the big creative voice that could bring all the disparate elements of a story or arc together into a working whole. I can't claim to be a fan of WWE's product nearly any time in the last nearly 20 years, but Patterson was capable of at least steering a reasonably consistent creative ship. I think the big thing is that they just don't feel like a wrestling show anymore, and haven't for awhile. There's so much essential basic booking 101 that they flagrantly ignore, or just bare minimum requirements they meet, and it's all stuff that nearly any other promotion wouldn't be caught dead doing, but they press on, anyway. Shit just happens, and they get their occasional big feeling "moment", but there's not a lot working beneath the hood, even though their creative process sounds like a constant state of flux, chaos, and infinite moving parts. Conversely, I don't think anyone gives enough stick to Kevin Dunn over his erasure of 'rasslin' tropes over the 30-odd years he's been with the company. No other person has done more to damage all that WWE had been (and, by extension, hurt the industry itself) than he has.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2022 16:17:25 GMT -5
Gotta agree with something said before and something I brought up in a thread about the Rumble: I don't think people can fully comprehend how important Pat Patterson was to the WWF's success over the years, because he was often the big creative voice that could bring all the disparate elements of a story or arc together into a working whole. I can't claim to be a fan of WWE's product nearly any time in the last nearly 20 years, but Patterson was capable of at least steering a reasonably consistent creative ship. I think the big thing is that they just don't feel like a wrestling show anymore, and haven't for awhile. There's so much essential basic booking 101 that they flagrantly ignore, or just bare minimum requirements they meet, and it's all stuff that nearly any other promotion wouldn't be caught dead doing, but they press on, anyway. Shit just happens, and they get their occasional big feeling "moment", but there's not a lot working beneath the hood, even though their creative process sounds like a constant state of flux, chaos, and infinite moving parts. People underestimate just how important Pat was to the WWE. If it weren't for Pat's booking, we never would have had the Rock n Wrestling era, in my opinion. If it weren't for Pat, there wouldn't BE a Royal Rumble. Pat knew how to book finishes like none other (once again, in my opinion). Hell, even Bischoff on 83 weeks stated that if there's one thing he wishes he had that Vince had, it was Pat Patterson.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Feb 11, 2022 16:31:05 GMT -5
I think WWE still cares about the product, but they're making it for other businesses now, not the fans. As soon as the business-to-business profits began to eclipse the money they get from fans, the priorities changed.
For example - it doesn't matter that the fans would prefer Rhonda vs. Becky at WM, because Fox wants Rhonda on Smackdown, so you get Rhonda vs. Charlotte instead. They bring back big names and do crowd-pleasing gimmick matches in Saudi Arabia instead of on US-based PPVs, because Saudi is paying more than the fans. The product isn't geared towards us anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 21:01:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure when they stopped caring about the product but I am sure that they severely stopped caring about people's opinions the moment the Reigns mega-push didn't work like they wanted circa Rumble/WM 2015. A year and a half earlier the company went back on their plans and changed them due to how the fans reacted to Bryan and sure, they didn't wanna do it, they were super stubborn but they eventually caved in. With Reigns however, it didn't matter what we wanted. They stayed with their plans and pushed him hard for years regardless of everyone else because they knew they'd be able to get away with it. Since then that's only continued. This reminds me of your take that I vibed with in the Royal Rumble 2015 thread: that the 2015 Rumble sucks partially because you can see every gear turning, that it's not just bad booking, it's bad booking that is visibly booking and not a story or a contest. I can't help but wonder if that was a breaking point for WWE even trying to tell a story to get where they were going, rather than just going there anyway without wasting all that effort on trying to elicit the right response. The fan response was telling too. They looked soulless as their favorites were being dumped. Not mad, not angry but soulless. It's sad. I really don't know their breaking point either. To me it looks more like AEW succeeding, people being popular in other companies and just, people not re-signing does them more damage than any bad product implications. Maybe it's because that's more out of their control? I don't know.
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Post by eJm on Feb 12, 2022 21:32:29 GMT -5
I really don't know their breaking point either. To me it looks more like AEW succeeding, people being popular in other companies and just, people not re-signing does them more damage than any bad product implications. Maybe it's because that's more out of their control? I don't know. I feel like if the pandemics and subsequent releases have shown one thing is that there was a point where WWE can put more effort into things or an ability to do a Russo style middle ground thing with talent up and down the card and they just don’t because they’re stuck in their ways and the TV companies and the Saudis love those ways. It’s not even AEW, the fact Impact have taken people like Deonna, Steve Cutler, Big Cass, Eric Young, Sawyer Fulton, Mickie James etc and made them feel like important parts of the show is a testament that it isn’t hard to do. Not to say this as a slight on Impact but they shouldn’t even be showing you up with this stuff. Hell, Matt Cardona in the year+ he’s been on the indies has done more to boost his credibility and star-power than pretty much his entire WWE career post True Long Island Story. And that’s off his own back, no billion dollar backing. And yeah, it’s great when you can keep people like Owens and Zayn but having someone like O’Reilly, someone who’d be valuable right now in NXT 2.0 or the main roster, say that he didn’t feel like he belonged in WWE and decided to go to AEW? You don’t want that stuff said out loud, you know.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Feb 12, 2022 23:25:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't say they've stopped caring but I was genuinely impressed by how hard Vince tried to get Roman over as a babyface champion. He even came back as a heel ref for it. I just don't feel like he's trying nearly as hard these days, even for the things he actually cares about. It feels like putting these shows together is something he just has to do rather than something he enjoys. The problem is he couldn't step away from it because he has serious control issues. And that's why we are where we are.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Feb 12, 2022 23:32:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't say they've stopped caring but I was genuinely impressed by how hard Vince tried to get Roman over as a babyface champion. He even came back as a heel ref for it. I just don't feel like he's trying nearly as hard these days, even for the things he actually cares about. It feels like putting these shows together is something he just has to do rather than something he enjoys. The problem is he couldn't step away from it because he has serious control issues. And that's why we are where we are. I've always thought about how much the Cena situation played a part in the great Roman push debacle. Vince remained steadfast in pushing Cena, and finally wore his detractors down to accepting him, if not exactly liking him. Having succeeded then, I could imagine that directly bolstering Vince's refusal to give up on Roman.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Feb 13, 2022 0:26:04 GMT -5
I wouldn't say they've stopped caring but I was genuinely impressed by how hard Vince tried to get Roman over as a babyface champion. He even came back as a heel ref for it. I just don't feel like he's trying nearly as hard these days, even for the things he actually cares about. It feels like putting these shows together is something he just has to do rather than something he enjoys. The problem is he couldn't step away from it because he has serious control issues. And that's why we are where we are. I've always thought about how much the Cena situation played a part in the great Roman push debacle. Vince remained steadfast in pushing Cena, and finally wore his detractors down to accepting him, if not exactly liking him. Having succeeded then, I could imagine that directly bolstering Vince's refusal to give up on Roman. The Cena run is a massive factor on both the company side AND the fan side. Company is like "Well, they eventually gave in with Cena" and the fans are like "We just dealt with 10 years of this" and lashed out earlier and harder.
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Post by evilhomer on Feb 13, 2022 1:46:36 GMT -5
So formulaic, so going through the motions. That is my problem with the product in a nutshell. I haven't watched a show live in years, I record them so I can skip through the boring parts. For at least a few months now, I have not slowed it down to anything less that 2X speed, I watch the whole episode in under 5 minutes and know that I've missed nothing of interest.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 13, 2022 6:28:33 GMT -5
They never truly “stopped caring”, the problem is that WWE think they know everything.
What happen was they stopped listening to outside sources and they’ve obsessed with re-writing everything and developing all talent by scratch, which won’t work in the long term.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 13, 2022 6:38:08 GMT -5
WWE's priorities are all over the place, and part of the issue they have with listening to fans is A. they don't really *get* what they're being asked for lots of times, and B. they obviously have a wide swathe of fans. Many are very online, often touching base with WWE, and a good deal don't really engage with WWE on social media, youtube, etc. Sometimes they have the same tastes, and sometimes they don't/
NXT 2.0 was expensive. Even with the goal ultimately being cost-cutting, it isn't like they could manifest a whole different aesthetic for free, that took money. The problem is, going by ratings, it's hard to really know how many people were asking for the overhaul, and among them, who wanted this, exactly.
WWE are unfortunately out of touch with a lot of their fans. I don't even think that's an inflammatory thing to say, that while some of what they do is out of spite, a lot of their unpopular moves come down to ignorance or a whole different set of priorities.
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