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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Apr 2, 2022 4:35:36 GMT -5
WWE is afraid to really try something new and has gradually grinded out and watered down the formula that worked for them in the Attitude Era.
But yes, lack of characters is a big thing. That and a garish, yet bland product, over exposure of the roster and feuds, predictable outcomes, relying on the the same two people to 'lead' the company for the last decade, the way they treat the roster and staff, and simply the fact they are now purely 'content' creators.
The product is the absolute shits.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 5:17:46 GMT -5
Just saw something about WOL where Alvarez was talking about Theory and Vince seeing him as the next Cena/next The Guy and yeah, it makes a lot of sense with his push but with that said it says a lot about his idea of what he wants out of everything. If Theory is the prototype for who's next and his booking is how he wants to attract viewers then it makes perfect sense why he'd have a selfie gimmick. Vince thinks all young people do that stuff. It makes sense why he'd have him all in his segments teaching him, why he'd have a feud with the new young cool announcer Pat McAfee. It makes sense why Theory is going over the Ricochets and making the Balors look bad. I get it.
But if your idea of the next guy up, a guy who can attract new viewers is a dude with a selfie gimmick circa 2022, that's why it's not as popular as it used to be these days. That's outdated. I'm not a kid anymore but if I were a kid that wouldn't make me want to watch. I'd wanna watch the guys he's beaten instead because they were cool and anime-like. Not this dude here who acts like a junior high asshole.
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Post by eJm on Apr 2, 2022 5:59:51 GMT -5
Just saw something about WOL where Alvarez was talking about Theory and Vince seeing him as the next Cena/next The Guy and yeah, it makes a lot of sense with his push but with that said it says a lot about his idea of what he wants out of everything. If Theory is the prototype for who's next and his booking is how he wants to attract viewers then it makes perfect sense why he'd have a selfie gimmick. Vince thinks all young people do that stuff. It makes sense why he'd have him all in his segments teaching him, why he'd have a feud with the new young cool announcer Pat McAfee. It makes sense why Theory is going over the Ricochets and making the Balors look bad. I get it. But if your idea of the next guy up, at guy who can attract new viewers is a dude with a selfie gimmick circa 2022, that's why it's not as popular as it used to be these days. That's outdated. I'm not a kid anymore but if I were a kid that wouldn't make me want to watch. I'd wanna watch the guys he's beaten instead because they were cool and anime-like. Not this dude here who acts like a junior high asshole. This just reminds me of one of the cooler things they never really did much with. Remember Periscope? Twitter’s live streaming app that didn’t last a long time? One of the cooler things they did in NXT with Tyler Breeze was him streaming his entrance through Periscope so you’d be able to watch the show with the full entrance on TV and see his perspective on it on your phone. He even filmed his opponent, Finn Balor, and it looked super cool. It was like what Cutler’s doing on BTE with filming the matches in highlights but you’d be seeing it live. I’m not saying Theory could pull off an influencer gimmick but that’d be a story you could go with. Vince thinking he needs aggression but seeing that he can get his guy to the top by taking advantage of his youth and phone savvy by having him shill WWE merch and sponsors and such. Heck, have him on Red Carpet events for Netflix and NBC stuff, filming things and putting it from a WWE perspective. There’s so much more you can do outside “dude takes pictures and puts it on social media” because that’s what Vince’s social media manager does already. And they’re not wrestlers.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Post by Dub H on Apr 2, 2022 6:03:45 GMT -5
Just saw something about WOL where Alvarez was talking about Theory and Vince seeing him as the next Cena/next The Guy and yeah, it makes a lot of sense with his push but with that said it says a lot about his idea of what he wants out of everything. If Theory is the prototype for who's next and his booking is how he wants to attract viewers then it makes perfect sense why he'd have a selfie gimmick. Vince thinks all young people do that stuff. It makes sense why he'd have him all in his segments teaching him, why he'd have a feud with the new young cool announcer Pat McAfee. It makes sense why Theory is going over the Ricochets and making the Balors look bad. I get it. But if your idea of the next guy up, at guy who can attract new viewers is a dude with a selfie gimmick circa 2022, that's why it's not as popular as it used to be these days. That's outdated. I'm not a kid anymore but if I were a kid that wouldn't make me want to watch. I'd wanna watch the guys he's beaten instead because they were cool and anime-like. Not this dude here who acts like a junior high asshole. he had the selfie gimmick at its peak with Tyler Breeze and he didnt do anything with it I know the "Vince is out of touch" jokes are plenty like "Oh Vince finally saw (insert 10 years old movie here)". But is based on truth. For comparison Jericho is calling himself an Influence because well,that IS what is hot right now, Influencers are a hot topic(for better or worse), he manages to get something that is relevant to todays crowd,Vince is always 10 steps behind on that.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 2, 2022 6:08:07 GMT -5
Common consensus (from the ratings threads) is that AEW has a near perfect product. That it's basically as good as pro wrestling can be. If WWE were putting on Dynamite level shows instead of Raw - what material difference do people think it would make? Like, what is the actual popularity ceiling for wrestling in 2022? Marvel Universe? Its hard to say because there is 10-20 years of WWE slowly setting wrestling into what it is today. I think a drop in popularity was inevitable but WWE could easily have been the super-media IP.Not to the level of Marvel Universe or Disney overall. But it could have been the LOTR, the trend setters and everlesting of its genre that is always popular and on eyes of the public.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 2, 2022 7:33:04 GMT -5
It’s probably as mainstream now as it’s been since the Attitude Era.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 2, 2022 7:36:51 GMT -5
This debate doesn't hold water. WWE as of now is pretty damn mainstream.
One can debate about the quality all they want, but they're probably more part of the zeitgeist than they have been in recent years.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 2, 2022 7:37:41 GMT -5
The WWE wanted to have their cake and eat it when it came to wrestling. They wanted it to bd more about the stars than the wrestling but also wanted to have complete control over who could be a star. They've spent two decades telling audiences they don't like the guy they like, going for the guys Vince likes instead and year by year, Vince's notion of who is a star has gotten further from what the public wants, and he can't accept that, actively working to limit the star power of his own employees.
The WWE is like a sports team whose coach intentionally plays players out of position purely because they're not handsome, or related to the right people, but nobody can stop them as they own the team.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 2, 2022 7:46:37 GMT -5
I’ll just come in and say that this debate is exceptionally boring and keeps getting exceptionally boring every time it comes up because there’s always people that don’t understand what appeals to people now. An example; You know what’s big right now and dominating media across all fronts? Nerd culture. Marvel shows are big, Sonic 2 is likely going to dominate the box office this weekend, there’s never been more people to own a variety of consoles and services for games than right now, manga is dominating the western book industry etc. You know what WWE seems to dislike more than not having the expenses graph drop an inch into the red? Nerd Culture. With Ricochet alone, you could sign a deal with Marvel Comics to have an artist draw him Spider-Man like and put over his athleticism but they don’t do that. That’s just something I thought of just now. So is Richochet your pick for WWE champ, then? I'm curious as to what Nerd Culture WWE would even look like since wrestling's already geeky.
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Post by eJm on Apr 2, 2022 8:07:46 GMT -5
So is Richochet your pick for WWE champ, then? I'm curious as to what Nerd Culture WWE would even look like since wrestling's already geeky. Not necessarily, it’s more looking at ways to utilize the strengths of your roster and the interests they and the fans share. Like, you can make people stars and mean something on your roster without giving them title runs or whatnot.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 2, 2022 8:43:07 GMT -5
So is Richochet your pick for WWE champ, then? I'm curious as to what Nerd Culture WWE would even look like since wrestling's already geeky. Not necessarily, it’s more looking at ways to utilize the strengths of your roster and the interests they and the fans share. Like, you can make people stars and mean something on your roster without giving them title runs or whatnot. WWE’s utilized the interests of wrestlers in the past, the problem is Vince’s recent tendency to overwrite everything now. I don’t think it can be argued that WWE isn’t mainstream, to me the actual debate is “the reason WWE isn’t hot”. There’s a huge difference between mainstream and hot. Something can be both mainstream and hot, one or the other, sometimes neither. Like it or not, AEW right now is hot- but not as mainstream as WWE. To me neither company as of now is “slumming”.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 8:48:58 GMT -5
WWE is in IMO an odd space between being somewhat mainstream but not anywhere as popular as they were and could be considered niche because of how fractured media and popculture is as a whole and so there is no one singular thing that the majority get onboard with anymore.
Everything is consumed at such a rapid pace that trying to tap into whats popluar now could make you look like you riding on nostalgia just a month later.
The smart thing IMO LU did that no other company for some odd f***ing reason has understood is they tapped into evolving wrestling in a way that was not trying to latch onto a trend but evolve how stories are told and viewed within wrestling and no one not WWE , AEW etc have come out of their box to even attempt it.
All other wrestling companies wanna try and tap into the quick trends and not actually evolve the core creative aspect of wrestling they are all just pulling from the same box that WWE has been pulling from the last nearly 25yrs now.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,663
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Post by Bo Rida on Apr 2, 2022 8:53:58 GMT -5
I’ll just come in and say that this debate is exceptionally boring and keeps getting exceptionally boring every time it comes up because there’s always people that don’t understand what appeals to people now. An example; You know what’s big right now and dominating media across all fronts? Nerd culture. Marvel shows are big, Sonic 2 is likely going to dominate the box office this weekend, there’s never been more people to own a variety of consoles and services for games than right now, manga is dominating the western book industry etc. You know what WWE seems to dislike more than not having the expenses graph drop an inch into the red? Nerd Culture. With Ricochet alone, you could sign a deal with Marvel Comics to have an artist draw him Spider-Man like and put over his athleticism but they don’t do that. That’s just something I thought of just now. Yep. Even away from nerd culture what else is popular on social media? Attractive people, fitness, travel, showing off cool stuff, bad comedy, memes, inspiration, people delivering what are essentially promos. Mostly young, attractive and talented people doing interesting things will always be mainstream. Wrestling has a place waiting in the mainstream media pantheon, it should be symbiotic with many industries. Both in cross promotion and it providing a never ending stream of new material to base content around, no waiting for an annual movie or world cup. But WWE are the market leader and need to be creatively strong and take advantage of it, instead they actively limit what's possible on and off screen.
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on Apr 2, 2022 9:58:08 GMT -5
Nothing is "mainstream" anymore outside of Football and Marvel Films. The culture is very fragmented these days.
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krozor
Don Corleone
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Post by krozor on Apr 2, 2022 10:43:51 GMT -5
Just imagine if WWE changed it's content into eating soups on YouTube. Think of the views, bro. Picturing The Miz sitting alone on a park bench, his face in his hands. He doesn't want to do it. He doesn't want to have to eat 60 full cans of soup live in eight minutes and then wrestle a 40 second match that consists of him getting kicked in the stomach by a YouTube "star" named Dr. Chunky and almost comically vomiting before being rolled up for a pin by Madcap Moss at Wrestlemania 39. It wasn't supposed to be like this, was it? How did it come to this?
He doesn't want to do it. But he will. He knows he will. Someone has to do it and it's going to be him and he's going to put his all into it, even though he knows it's going to lead to weeks of build-up of him getting "soup baths" in the middle of the ring and cutting endless promos where he calls himself the "Must See Soup-erstar" even though it only works when you see it written out and not said out loud and no one will ever remember the segment anyway and by the time it's over, he's never going to be able to even think about eating soup again without getting physically ill. He's The Miz and he's going to do the soup thing because they want him to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 10:54:21 GMT -5
It is also hard to say that WWE and by extension WrestleMania is not the most important aspect of the industry however...
When everyone in the industry starts migrating to the cities that other PPVs are being held at then I will accept that they are at the level of WWE but nothing tops WWE and WrestleMania when it comes to mainstream and it's evident by all the shows that spring up around it the same weekend.
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Post by Brickstone Kid on Apr 2, 2022 11:03:47 GMT -5
I agree with some of you that WWE is pretty mainstream (lots of fans around the country, generally good enough ratings to still feel like a major player in TV).
But...I will say this. I work in Hollywood and 99% of people I interact with (producers, agents, etc.) couldn't name one current WWE wrestler. Most of them think its lame as f*** and have the same "Oh, I remember back in the day with Stone Cold and the Rock" response. That's a testament to the OPs point - no real memorable characters, and a product that really hasn't had its finger on the pulse in 20 years.
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Post by defectiveepitaph on Apr 2, 2022 11:39:38 GMT -5
I agree with some of you that WWE is pretty mainstream (lots of fans around the country, generally good enough ratings to still feel like a major player in TV). But...I will say this. I work in Hollywood and 99% of people I interact with (producers, agents, etc.) couldn't name one current WWE wrestler. Most of them think its lame as f*** and have the same "Oh, I remember back in the day with Stone Cold and the Rock" response. That's a testament to the OPs point - no real memorable characters, and a product that really hasn't had its finger on the pulse in 20 years. Most average ppl share the opinion that wrestling is lame af.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Apr 2, 2022 12:35:50 GMT -5
I think there’s two different points here that don’t really correlate.
Yes, wrestling is popular.
No, they don’t have an over the top super hero like Cena, Rock, Austin, or Hogan.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,663
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Post by Bo Rida on Apr 2, 2022 12:40:08 GMT -5
It is also hard to say that WWE and by extension WrestleMania is not the most important aspect of the industry however... When everyone in the industry starts migrating to the cities that other PPVs are being held at then I will accept that they are at the level of WWE but nothing tops WWE and WrestleMania when it comes to mainstream and it's evident by all the shows that spring up around it the same weekend. In theory you need a big name/brand at the top of the industry the interest, opportunities and money then filters elsewhere. There was a time heroes was the closest thing to a superhero TV show. Now the MCU allows legends of tomorrow, Watchmen and the boys to exist. Even within the MCU the big name heroes have helped boost characters most hadn't even heard of. In sports an interest in elite level should mean more money in facilities etc. WWE and other big sports brands making anti competitive moves clouds that a little but in theory the more interest in WWE the more in other companies. So yeah WWE are clearly the top and that does benefit others but could be in a much better position.
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