The reason WWE isn't mainstream anymore

[pinja]

Wrestling seems to be a rather healthy business and that's about the best thing you can say for something both so unique and old in concept.

I, too, preferred the big boys. I'm a body guy, I was in awe with all of the amazing physiques, the tall guys with crazy hair and even crazier ways of talking. The thing is: It's said again and again that kayfabe is dead and pretending it isn't would be dumb. I wholeheartedly disagree just for the kids out there. I took wrestling very serious when I even saw garbage like Undertaker vs. Giant Gonzales, just because I was so invested in Taker. I would not have been invested at all in average looking dudes with average voices doing spectacular stuff. In the realms of kayfabe, a flip looks nice, but it doesn't mean more than a great worked punch. I really think wrestling today lacks in fundamentals plus - again - I'm too much of a body guy to be impressed by physiques that are worse than my half-assed trained self.

[Fade]

Apr 2, 2022 4:19:21 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

Common consensus (from the ratings threads) is that AEW has a near perfect product. That it's basically as good as pro wrestling can be.

If WWE were putting on Dynamite level shows instead of Raw - what material difference do people think it would make?

Like, what is the actual popularity ceiling for wrestling in 2022? Marvel Universe?

The MCU comparison is hilarious and appropriate.

Marvel Studios took a lot of focus, commitment, and risk-taking to get to the position they were in. Not to mention external factors. They (f***ing somehow) cater to both hardcore fans and the masses.

WWE & AEW are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Look at this weekend: WWE packs it’s biggest show with “outside stars” to desperately try and appeal to the masses. Knoxville, Pat, Logan Paul, Ronda. You can argue how current and relevant they are, but that’s the intention. AEW, pulls off an awesome ROH show, brings back Samoa Joe. They continuously seduce the “hardcore” fans that WWE has repelled the last two decades. Both men at the top are dug in their heels and stubborn with this. Vince looks at the bigger picture. Tony focuses on the meat. WWE should try to mend that relationship with hardcore fans. AEW should be consistently trying to appeal to casuals. Two different approaches. And No Kevin Feige.

Apr 2, 2022 3:01:19 GMT -5 @selhurst said:

I don't know why they stopped doing cinematic matches.

It can create larger than life characters, if marketed correctly could tap into the YouTube/tiktok younger demo, LU showed there's a niche for it among hardcore fans, both major companies efforts during the pandemic were well receieved.

It solves problems that both companies have, for WWE it gives a character and storylines to guys like Omos who have the look but can't wrestle. For AEW it helps with their roster bloat, give Matt Hardy 2 hours of YouTube content to film with the guys and girls not currently booked on tv and he'll get them better exposure than Dark.

Both companies lost interest in CMs as soon as crowds were allowed back but its a well that is yet to be depleted.

Agreed and I almost posted the same thing before. There’s something there to tap into. Not necessarily LU but something that takes the formula of pro-wrestling and modifies it into a series format with a “live aspect”. I think eventually someone/some company is going to at the least try.

[Dan Royal]

I agree that part of the problem with wrestling now, is that the performers aren't "All in" like they were before.

Ric Flair was actually flying in jets, taking limos, drinking every night, and banging a different woman in real life.

Steve Austin actually was a beer-drinking redneck in real life.

This came across as genuine on screen and added an extra layer of "realism" and made it easier to get invested in the characters.

The problem is Ric Flair ended up blowing all his money, getting divorced a million times, and having various medical problems.

Austin ended up believing his own hype so much. He beat his wife and ended up in huge legal trouble for a while.

So it's unrealistic to go to today's wrestlers and be like "Hey, can you live your gimmick and be more over the top? Sure, it will probably mess up your life. But it will make for great TV"

[Kalmia]

I don't think WWE/F was ever mainstream because of the big, body guys. It was mainstream because it captured the zeitgeist of the time. The 80s were colorful and loud, so the wrestlers were. The late 90s were edgy and subversive, just like Austin, DX and everyone in the Attitude era was. Of course, there was always parts of society that rebelled against those things, but they existed out of the mainstream.

I don't think you can sum up modern-day society in such neat ways, though. It's too fractured.

Apr 2, 2022 13:34:59 GMT -5 Dan Royal said:

I agree that part of the problem with wrestling now, is that the performers aren't "All in" like they were before.

Ric Flair was actually flying in jets, taking limos, drinking every night, and banging a different woman in real life.

Steve Austin actually was a beer-drinking redneck in real life.

This came across as genuine on screen and added an extra layer of "realism" and made it easier to get invested in the characters.

The problem is Ric Flair ended up blowing all his money, getting divorced a million times, and having various medical problems.

Austin ended up believing his own hype so much. He beat his wife and ended up in huge legal trouble for a while.

So it's unrealistic to go to today's wrestlers and be like "Hey, can you live your gimmick and be more over the top? Sure, it will probably mess up your life. But it will make for great TV"

And this is part of it too, I think. Most of the best characters have been wrestlers that have had aspects of their real personality turned to 11. WWE keeps trying to push square pegs into round holes with some of the gimmick and storyline choices. Obviously, we don't want people going as far as Austin and Flair did, but finding the right gimmick for each individual based on /them/ is better than just hoisting random stuff on people.

[eJm]

Apr 2, 2022 13:55:41 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think WWE/F was ever mainstream because of the big, body guys. It was mainstream because it captured the zeitgeist of the time. The 80s were colorful and loud, so the wrestlers were. The late 90s were edgy and subversive, just like Austin, DX and everyone in the Attitude era was. Of course, there was always parts of society that rebelled against those things, but they existed out of the mainstream.

I don't think you can sum up modern-day society in such neat ways, though. It's too fractured.

That is also something we sort of don’t remember. When people parody wrestling, it’s absolutely less about the giant guys (which does help) but more everyone shouting and acting like they shoved a whole brick of cocaine up their nose. Likely because 75% of the roster did, in fact, do that.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Apr 2, 2022 13:55:41 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think WWE/F was ever mainstream because of the big, body guys. It was mainstream because it captured the zeitgeist of the time. The 80s were colorful and loud, so the wrestlers were. The late 90s were edgy and subversive, just like Austin, DX and everyone in the Attitude era was. Of course, there was always parts of society that rebelled against those things, but they existed out of the mainstream.

I don't think you can sum up modern-day society in such neat ways, though. It's too fractured.

There's also one really good facet to the boom periods and the zeitgeist. Vince thrived in the '80s because his sensibilities were what the '80s needed. Vince was unquestionably "with the times" and made moves to tap into pop culture in successful ways while presenting colourful living superheroes with all the glitz and showmanship of the decade. The Attitude Era was not Vince tapping back into the zeitgeist, but Vince listening to the people who could. After years of trying to still be the '80s to flagging business and seeing his hand-picked guys fail to register as stars, Vince listened to people like Russo who took the product into a different direction that people ate up because it was what they were looking for culturally. Vince has adamantly refused to look at the cultural landscape again since in any meaningful way. His product isn't tapping into any movement or aesthetic, he's just stapling big names onto a product that has trouble connecting to people because he's turned his company into a sterile content farm forcing 'moments' by saying somethign was a moment, because all that really matters is fulfilling content obligations.

There is definitely no way you can just become what Everyone Is Talking About right now. That only exists for fad shows that die out on the endless content life cycle. But WWE's failure to zero in on some actual idea and chase an audience is a very damning one. If they want families and their average viewer age is 50, something has gone wrong.

[Deleted]

WWE wants to be everything to everyone instead of realizing that is impossible now because of how fragmented everything is especially popculture and media.

[joeiscool]

It's also because there is no real mainstream right now. Outside of a few historic moments and maybe the super bowl half time show there's nothing everyone is watching.

This recent Oscars was the second lowest rated of all time. If the slap never happened a large portion of the population would have probably not know what day the Oscars were held.

Think about that. This is the organization that is responsible for setting the standards of movies.

[fg]

Apr 2, 2022 15:31:55 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Apr 2, 2022 13:55:41 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think WWE/F was ever mainstream because of the big, body guys. It was mainstream because it captured the zeitgeist of the time. The 80s were colorful and loud, so the wrestlers were. The late 90s were edgy and subversive, just like Austin, DX and everyone in the Attitude era was. Of course, there was always parts of society that rebelled against those things, but they existed out of the mainstream.

I don't think you can sum up modern-day society in such neat ways, though. It's too fractured.

There's also one really good facet to the boom periods and the zeitgeist. Vince thrived in the '80s because his sensibilities were what the '80s needed. Vince was unquestionably "with the times" and made moves to tap into pop culture in successful ways while presenting colourful living superheroes with all the glitz and showmanship of the decade. The Attitude Era was not Vince tapping back into the zeitgeist, but Vince listening to the people who could. After years of trying to still be the '80s to flagging business and seeing his hand-picked guys fail to register as stars, Vince listened to people like Russo who took the product into a different direction that people ate up because it was what they were looking for culturally. Vince has adamantly refused to look at the cultural landscape again since in any meaningful way. His product isn't tapping into any movement or aesthetic, he's just stapling big names onto a product that has trouble connecting to people because he's turned his company into a sterile content farm forcing 'moments' by saying somethign was a moment, because all that really matters is fulfilling content obligations.

There is definitely no way you can just become what Everyone Is Talking About right now. That only exists for fad shows that die out on the endless content life cycle. But WWE's failure to zero in on some actual idea and chase an audience is a very damning one. If they want families and their average viewer age is 50, something has gone wrong.

Vince: “I used to be with it but than they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it and what’s it seems weird and scary to me. It will happen to you.”

[eJm]

Apr 2, 2022 17:03:10 GMT -5 fg said:

Apr 2, 2022 15:31:55 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

There's also one really good facet to the boom periods and the zeitgeist. Vince thrived in the '80s because his sensibilities were what the '80s needed. Vince was unquestionably "with the times" and made moves to tap into pop culture in successful ways while presenting colourful living superheroes with all the glitz and showmanship of the decade. The Attitude Era was not Vince tapping back into the zeitgeist, but Vince listening to the people who could. After years of trying to still be the '80s to flagging business and seeing his hand-picked guys fail to register as stars, Vince listened to people like Russo who took the product into a different direction that people ate up because it was what they were looking for culturally. Vince has adamantly refused to look at the cultural landscape again since in any meaningful way. His product isn't tapping into any movement or aesthetic, he's just stapling big names onto a product that has trouble connecting to people because he's turned his company into a sterile content farm forcing 'moments' by saying somethign was a moment, because all that really matters is fulfilling content obligations.

There is definitely no way you can just become what Everyone Is Talking About right now. That only exists for fad shows that die out on the endless content life cycle. But WWE's failure to zero in on some actual idea and chase an audience is a very damning one. If they want families and their average viewer age is 50, something has gone wrong.

Vince: “I used to be with it but than they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it and what’s it seems weird and scary to me. It will happen to you.”

It’s a bit more like

Vince: I used to be with it. I still am with it. Everyone else saying I should change don’t realize how well it has been working for me. Now let me introduce you to my new immobile big man, he’ll be my new Andre. I just need to remember how I booked Andre…

[A Platypus Rave]

Apr 2, 2022 17:20:02 GMT -5 eJm said:

Apr 2, 2022 17:03:10 GMT -5 fg said:

Vince: “I used to be with it but than they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it and what’s it seems weird and scary to me. It will happen to you.”

It’s a bit more like

Vince: I used to be with it. I still am with it. Everyone else saying I should change don’t realize how well it has been working for me. Now let me introduce you to my new immobile big man, he’ll be my new Andre. I just need to remember how I booked Andre…

or to use another simpsons meme

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Apr 2, 2022 17:20:02 GMT -5 eJm said:

Apr 2, 2022 17:03:10 GMT -5 fg said:

Vince: “I used to be with it but than they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it and what’s it seems weird and scary to me. It will happen to you.”

It’s a bit more like

Vince: I used to be with it. I still am with it. Everyone else saying I should change don’t realize how well it has been working for me. Now let me introduce you to my new immobile big man, he’ll be my new Andre. I just need to remember how I booked Andre…

I used to be with it, then they changed what it was. Now what I’m with isn’t it and what’s it is weird and scary to me…IT’LL HAPPEN TO YOU!

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

WWE is no longer as mainstream as they were because at their apex they turned Austin heel and blew the InVasion angle and have never recovered.

They have also then repeatedly killed or tried to kill proven draws for them out of spite for them not being chosen.

They have also spent around 15 years or more pushing to the top people the fans do not want in the spot they are in, and do not get the reactions the company wants.

The wrestling bubble would have burst eventually. Every hot trend will eventually burn out in some form or another, it's just about when that happens, but WWE actively made decisions that would be absolutely idiotic for any other business to do.

Make any complaints you want about their product's subjective quality. But you can measure audience losses. You can see six million WCW fans disappear overnight in 2001. You can hear fans booing shows so savagely that the 2014 Rumble borders on unwatchable. You can see every time they tried to transfer Daniel Bryan or CM Punk's heat onto other people. It isn't about what we may personally think about any of that. The audience as a whole spoke, a bunch of times, and WWE kept failing upward until they discovered they can make money with TV deals instead of fans.

["Cane Dewey" Johnson]

Apr 2, 2022 15:53:06 GMT -5 joeiscool said:

It's also because there is no real mainstream right now. Outside of a few historic moments and maybe the super bowl half time show there's nothing everyone is watching.

This recent Oscars was the second lowest rated of all time. If the slap never happened a large portion of the population would have probably not know what day the Oscars were held.

Think about that. This is the organization that is responsible for setting the standards of movies.

And the Oscars, for all its irrelevance, drew an audience 10 times the size of the regular TV audience that watches Raw on Monday nights. It's not a neat comparison, as the Oscars are once a year compared to 52 weeks for Raw, but it's been almost a week since the slap and people are still buzzing about it. When was the last time something happened on WWE TV that kept people's attention for more than a week, if that--CM Punk's Pipebomb, maybe?

[polarbearpete]

Apr 2, 2022 23:37:16 GMT -5 "Cane Dewey" Johnson said:

Apr 2, 2022 15:53:06 GMT -5 joeiscool said:

It's also because there is no real mainstream right now. Outside of a few historic moments and maybe the super bowl half time show there's nothing everyone is watching.

This recent Oscars was the second lowest rated of all time. If the slap never happened a large portion of the population would have probably not know what day the Oscars were held.

Think about that. This is the organization that is responsible for setting the standards of movies.

And the Oscars, for all its irrelevance, drew an audience 10 times the size of the regular TV audience that watches Raw on Monday nights. It's not a neat comparison, as the Oscars are once a year compared to 52 weeks for Raw, but it's been almost a week since the slap and people are still buzzing about it. When was the last time something happened on WWE TV that kept people's attention for more than a week, if that--CM Punk's Pipebomb, maybe?

Odd comparison. In what era of wrestling would an on-screen moment have as much buzz a week later as something that happened as high profile as what did at the Oscars? It’s not like everyone was buzzing about Austin stunning McMahon outside of wrestling fans, there were just more people watching wrestling at the time.

[Cyno]

It's an apples and oranges comparison. The Oscars happens once a year and that infamous slap was a completely unscripted moment where one of the most recognizable movie stars in the country slapped one of the most famous comedians of all time. Wrestling is scripted, weekly television and the moments that end up being too "real" end up being disasters or tragedies.

Said tragedies also are the only things that get coverage from the non-sporting media. Chris Benoit dying was a wrestling story. Chris Benoit murdering his family before killing himself was a major news story.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Wrestling briefly fit the mainstream during the 80s action movie era: a cartoonish version of Rambo for the kids. Big hulking muscle guys have not been a big pop culture draw for decades, but when it was a thing, the WWF was on it.

Then, they stumbled upon something pretty obvious in retrospect: if you market to nine year-olds and it works really well, all you have to do is wait ten years and market the same thing to nineteen year-olds. "Holy shit, Hulk Hogan's a bad guy now!" drew people back, but they stayed for the edginess. And I guess you could say the edginess was this "over the top" thing, but real talk: big huge over-the-top energy gets REAL annoying, REAL fast. The Attitude Era was always going to burn out quickly. Neither that nor the initial success were really due to any special cultural insight for the WWF.


But this points to the question I always have with this "mainstream" discussion... how long do you think anything stays a big huge mainstream focus? The WWE is on TV multiple times a week, and it has been that way for years. How long were people talking about Tiger King, two months?

[Bad Moon]

Why would you even want it to be mainstream? WWE is already suffering from being too safe and formulaic, going full Disney and having every little decision market researched and committee-approved would only make it even more lifeless and phoney than it already is.

[stoptheclocks]

Apr 2, 2022 23:37:16 GMT -5 "Cane Dewey" Johnson said:

Apr 2, 2022 15:53:06 GMT -5 joeiscool said:

It's also because there is no real mainstream right now. Outside of a few historic moments and maybe the super bowl half time show there's nothing everyone is watching.

This recent Oscars was the second lowest rated of all time. If the slap never happened a large portion of the population would have probably not know what day the Oscars were held.

Think about that. This is the organization that is responsible for setting the standards of movies.

And the Oscars, for all its irrelevance, drew an audience 10 times the size of the regular TV audience that watches Raw on Monday nights. It's not a neat comparison, as the Oscars are once a year compared to 52 weeks for Raw, but it's been almost a week since the slap and people are still buzzing about it. When was the last time something happened on WWE TV that kept people's attention for more than a week, if that--CM Punk's Pipebomb, maybe?

What do you think, theoretically, is something that could actually happen in WWE that would create as big a moment as Will Smith slapping Chris Rock? Certainly nothing wrestling related and probably nothing that wouldn't also be tragic.

[The Ichi]

Apr 2, 2022 4:33:06 GMT -5 fw91 said:

Apr 2, 2022 3:35:46 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Because It's not a cop out to blame Vince. Since the issues are not on the Wrestlers, it's not on the writers, or even the other bookers or agents.

It's on Vince.

because literally everything in the WWE comes back to Vince.

All the issues with writing and everything mostly mentioned in this thread is due to Vince's booking strategy.

Vince's changing his mind every few minutes on story writing

Vince being the final say on everything.

Vince is still the root of the problem.

and nothing is going to change or get better until Vince realizes it and changes his strategy, or is no longer the man in charge.

He’s not a saint by any means, but imo this way of thinking off-sets any point that was made by the OP, which again imo is very accurate. I’m not going to say Vince is a stand up guy, but I don’t think one can be dismissive of the op.

OP's post had literally nothing to do with Vince, so I'm not sure why you're trying to get a debate you throughly lost last time going.

But incase it wasn't made clear enough, no, it's not a cop out to blame Vince, the literal owner of the company and man who has final say on everything.