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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 16:44:16 GMT -5
You said people who disagree with you about Roman being an objective draw are 'blinded by nostalgia or preference'. And I stand by that. Bret drew, in the international market. But WWE makes money hands over fists with Roman as top guy. In spite of. WWE is currently setup to make money no matter who is at the top. it is almost completely automated funded by TV deals that are decided well before anything even gets put on television (And their ratings have been sagging for years especially with Roman on top) and Saudi Money who don't really care what's on as long as they can parade around that look how progressive we are in Saudi Arabia... we even let Women preform isn't that novel? Attendance has been down, ratings have been down, basically by every conceivable metric business has been down while Roman has been on top, and they are basically playing the odds that the networks are just going to give them money because they are the WWE. Which to be fair has been working in their favor so far. |
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Post by DeeBee on Apr 2, 2022 16:44:58 GMT -5
Roman isn't exactly putting them in a new boom period. They were more popular during HBK's era. Which, to be fair, that isn't solely Roman's fault. They weren't more popular. WCW was, but WWF was on it's death bed with HBK as the top face. True, but there's no WCW now and WWF wasn't getting ridiculous TV deals and blood money from the Saudis. |
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 2, 2022 16:45:04 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa, who did I mock? People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. That's not mocking anyone. That's an opinion as well. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 16:45:08 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa, who did I mock? People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. People who say no, are blinded by nostalgia or personal preference. yeah "mock" might be too strong of a word. But right here... you are basically calling people's opinions wrong. |
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Post by King Boo on Apr 2, 2022 16:46:05 GMT -5
That's not mocking anyone. That's an opinion as well. What's curious is that no one else voiced their opinion in a way that sounded like they were looking down their nose on someone else who didn't agree with them. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 2, 2022 16:46:22 GMT -5
You said people who disagree with you about Roman being an objective draw are 'blinded by nostalgia or preference'. And I stand by that. Bret drew, in the international market. But WWE makes money hands over fists with Roman as top guy. No, no. WWE making big money and Roman drawing tickets and ratings are not the same thing. Below is a graph charting Raw's rating for over a decade and the decline is pretty clear to me:  You said that if people say he's not drawing ratings then they're blinded. Here is the actual layout of proportionally how much of the viewing public is watching them. If you're gonna stand by the statement people who disagree with you are blind but people who go and look at the numbers should 'do better' then I'm not sure what to tell you. |
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 2, 2022 16:46:50 GMT -5
yeah "mock" might be too strong of a word. But right here... you are basically calling people's opinions wrong. I....I... I'm not calling opinions wrong. I'm just defending my own. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 2, 2022 16:48:17 GMT -5
Bret, probably not quite, though it's closer than it would have been a few years ago.
Shawn? Maybe. Shawn's time on top was more fleeting than Bret's was.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 2, 2022 16:49:24 GMT -5
And I stand by that. Bret drew, in the international market. But WWE makes money hands over fists with Roman as top guy. No, no. WWE making big money and Roman drawing tickets and ratings are not the same thing. Below is a graph charting Raw's rating for over a decade and the decline is pretty clear to me: You said that if people say he's not drawing ratings then they're blinded. Here is the actual layout of proportionally how much of the viewing public is watching them. If you're gonna stand by the statement people who disagree with you are blind but people who go and look at the numbers should 'do better' then I'm not sure what to tell you. I called you out for passive agressive language. That always irks me, whether the person is right or wrong. It's whatever tho. I'm gonna peace out of this thread, because it's obvious I've ruffled a few a feathers, and I have more importants things to worry about than an online beef. Sorry if I offended anyone. God bless you all. I'll post in other threads and not this one. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 2, 2022 16:50:42 GMT -5
No, no. WWE making big money and Roman drawing tickets and ratings are not the same thing. Below is a graph charting Raw's rating for over a decade and the decline is pretty clear to me: You said that if people say he's not drawing ratings then they're blinded. Here is the actual layout of proportionally how much of the viewing public is watching them. If you're gonna stand by the statement people who disagree with you are blind but people who go and look at the numbers should 'do better' then I'm not sure what to tell you. I called you out for passive agressive language. That always irks me, whether the person is right or wrong. It's whatever tho. I'm gonna peace out of this thread, because it's obvious I've ruffled a few a feathers, and I have more importants things to worry about than an online beef. Sorry if I offended anyone. God bless you all. I'll post in other threads and not this one. If you can't tell that "people who disagree with me are blind" is way more passive-aggressive then yeah it'd probably be best to bow out |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 16:57:56 GMT -5
once he left the Shield though he was not over as himself. He was constantly outpopped by Dean, and like 5 other faces. Also on your he was a draw thing... he ... kinda wasn't? The ratings overall still continued their downward trend and his run was when they stopped selling out house shows, and were having trouble selling tickets for TV shows... Hell they were thinking of cancelling House shows in 2019 because of how poorly they were doing... until COVID basically forced them to do it anyway. It's not fair to judge it all on Roman but if you're the main guy like they've been pushing Roman as for 7 years he does have to take some blame for it... especially if you are using that as your only non personal preference reason for saying he's over Michaels. Dude would have killed for Cena's worst night (when he wasn't working heel like One Night Stand) of 50/50... he was getting 25/75 IF he was lucky. He was over with kids, and most shows I went to at that time he was OVER. TV crowds full of smarks aren't the best measuring stick. And my point wasn't to say that Austin wasn't over or that Roman is a bigger star. But he is DEF a bigger star than HBK (who damn near bankrupted the company) and Bret (who after he left WWE achieved it's greatest success since the Hogan era.) On what metric is Roman such a draw? He’s exclusively existed in an era of brand over a single “guy,” and also has exclusively existed during a period where traditional television ratings have plummeted exponentially. The company making more money through television deals and Saudi blood money doesn’t make Roman a draw. The notion that he, himself, had “sold video games” may be the most laughable thing I’ve ever seen posted on this board. The video games have sold on the WWE name and a relative monopoly in the wrestling game market during Roman’s career. And 2k20 was the biggest disaster in WWE games’s history. As far as merch goes, his stuff is popular as compared to the rest of the current WWE roster, but not in a way that has driven any kind of business for the company. Shit, the Austin 3:16 shirt remains a best seller to this day. Roman is one of the best wrestlers in the last decade, and I like the guy. But in terms of his relative place in the WWE all-time hierarchy he’s closer to Diesel than to Bret Hart, much less to the Austins and Hogans of the world. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 17:04:35 GMT -5
Ok I think it's time to calm down and move on folks, and refocus generally on the topic at hand.
I think some of the back and forth has reached about where it's going to go and we're just gonna start talking in circles.
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Post by khali on Apr 2, 2022 17:57:43 GMT -5
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooooooo.
Part of what makes Bret and HBK so important is their influence on future wrestlers. You can watch guys now and see who was influenced by which guy by their style. That’s a rare thing. I do not expect Roman Reigns will have that influence.
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Post by msc on Apr 2, 2022 18:09:40 GMT -5
The question is unfair on Roman because he has upped his game and his current run has been great (if overlong as we've all noted). But, he's not the most versatile main eventer WWF ever had (Shawn) or the greatest in ring wrestler of his generation (Bret). He also, thankfully, will never have to be Bret Hart and basically be told to try and save the company.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Apr 2, 2022 18:47:00 GMT -5
This is a borderline ludicrous question, even for a pro wrestling board.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 2, 2022 18:50:03 GMT -5
Can’t be answered yet. Not a fair question to HBK, Bret or Roman.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Apr 2, 2022 19:35:45 GMT -5
No. No. Oh, Christ, no.
Not even close. Bret and HBK have been consistently named as influences on other wrestlers over 20 years after Hart's retirement and nearly 15 after Michaels's.
Reigns is not a tenth of the technician either Hart or Michaels was, has not elevated anyone to superstardom during his run, and currently benefits far too much from working for a company whose primary revenue stream is disconnected from viewer engagement.
For all HBK's sins, it was still possible to believe that he could be knocked off his perch by someone better or more popular. Bret was organically more popular to the point of being bulletproof and was highly in demand throughout the 1990s in spite of Vince's efforts to push others above him.
In a post-kayfabe environment, however, it is widely known that Roman is just Vince's favorite toy at the moment and that he will be on top precisely as long as Vince wants him there. There is no merit in being in such a position solely on the boss's whim, when your work is completely irrelevant to the amount of money he makes.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 2, 2022 19:56:55 GMT -5
Absolutely not.
I could understand the suggestion of Cena, but even that I would need to think about.
And this is nothing to do with how talented any of them were, that wasn't really the question
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 20:00:23 GMT -5
Personally in my eyes I wouldn't but if others would then hey I can see their argument. Roman's reign is more dominating than anything Bret's done and if you look at stats then yeah you can say he's better than Bret. Me personally though, if you wanna talk about work, skills, just all that stuff then I'd say Bret's better.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Apr 2, 2022 20:00:50 GMT -5
As an addendum, trying to quantify popularity/star power by viewership or tickets sold or world title reigns only goes so far. All those count, but only in the sense that they typically go to guys who already have the intangibles to make people remember them and want to see more out of them.
Like with HBK specifically, since there's the usual debate in this thread over how big a star he really was, the Wrestlemania X ladder match and its influence is easily a bigger deal than his actual headlining run in '96-'97.
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