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Post by sdoyle7798 on Apr 5, 2022 12:56:19 GMT -5
Something said in the "biggest match in each promotion" thread made me think:
What if WM 1 had flopped? Obviously, there is no WWF, or at least not as we know it.
So, does the national expansion happen later? It was unavoidable with the advent of cable.
Would we have gotten anywhere near the booms we got?
What say you, FanFam?
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 5, 2022 13:11:42 GMT -5
Vince would have most likely gone under. He was under a deal where he was making payments on the territory to his father and partners. If he missed any payments he lost the promotion and forfeited the money already paid. I dont think any of them would have wanted a damaged promotion so they would have tried to find another buyer.
Other promotions were already eyeing national expansion. They simply were not as impatient or ruthless as Vince. Crockett might have tried moving into New York. With that exposure he might have been able to avoid some of his issues.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Apr 5, 2022 13:17:17 GMT -5
Obviously 1984-85 was not all sunshine and roses for the WWF. They were spending like crazy despite the new revenues they were bringing in, had to borrow money from New Japan, and the million he got from Jim Crockett for the TBS timeslot wasn't just rainy-day money.
But was the fate of the entire company really resting on the success or failure of WM1, or is that just WWE narrative to make Vince look like an even bolder gambler? At worst, you'd think the WWF just dials back and returns to the Northeast, where they still have control of most of the major media markets, and probably hangs onto LA to boot. That's still going to be a major leg up on any other promoter.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Apr 5, 2022 13:21:54 GMT -5
The success of WrestleMania was indicative of the boom, so I don't see a boom if WrestleMania fails.
Wrestling in New York continues because it's a strong market and somebody else is going to pick up the pieces.
However, the Crockett expansion has a better chance of succeeding given that they wouldn't be in such a rush to bankrupt themselves to try to keep up with Vince.
The 80's boom was pretty much the reason for the 90's boom, so without the first boom and Vince's ambition to make wrestling mainstream entertainment, it's hard to envision a boom happening that compares to what Vince triggered with Rock & Wrestling and Hulkamania.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 5, 2022 13:44:03 GMT -5
We'd all be watching AWA in the pink room with Eddie Edwards as the heavyweight champ right now.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Apr 5, 2022 14:08:31 GMT -5
We'd all be watching AWA in the pink room with Eddie Edwards as the heavyweight champ right now. Verne would've died in the ring as champ.
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Post by government mule on Apr 5, 2022 14:23:22 GMT -5
The Harts would still be stretching people in the dungeon with Stu stuffed and mounted in the corner
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Apr 5, 2022 19:44:27 GMT -5
Was it even possible for it to be some kind of massive failure? It was in MSG so they only had to sell around 20,000 tickets which wasn't difficult for them. PPV wasn't really a thing in wrestling yet (The Wrestling Classic later that year would be the first ever). And no one in 1985 would have been expecting a card full of high work-rate matches.
I guess if the media completely ignored it and didn't give it any press even with Ali/etc it would have been a disappointment but I think it's an exaggeration that the company would have went bankrupt like they try to say on documentaries. I always thought they went with that narrative because the all or nothing thing sounds more romantic.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Apr 5, 2022 21:32:00 GMT -5
Was it even possible for it to be some kind of massive failure? It was in MSG so they only had to sell around 20,000 tickets which wasn't difficult for them. PPV wasn't really a thing in wrestling yet (The Wrestling Classic later that year would be the first ever). And no one in 1985 would have been expecting a card full of high work-rate matches. I guess if the media completely ignored it and didn't give it any press even with Ali/etc it would have been a disappointment but I think it's an exaggeration that the company would have went bankrupt like they try to say on documentaries. I always thought they went with that narrative because the all or nothing thing sounds more romantic. I mean, in some cases they were renting big arenas (and in some cases being deliberately vague on if the card was CCTV or live in that particular city) to broadcast the show--that doesn't come cheap. And remember that one of the ways that the WWF expanded was by buying time on then-out-of-market TV stations to air their syndicated programming--sometimes outright, sometimes as a percentage of the live gate when they ran a show there. I agree that the all-in bet is exaggerated but it wasn't a show, or an expansion plan, without risks.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 6, 2022 0:39:05 GMT -5
I do wonder if WCCW expands further on cable.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Apr 6, 2022 2:57:30 GMT -5
Something I had never really thought about until just now, but I wonder how different the in-ring product would’ve looked had someone other than McMahon gone national first. The WWF style was a lot less intense compared to what Watts and Crockett and their ilk were offering, so I wonder if that would’ve still become a throwback style like it became viewed as, or ended up the pervasive mainstream US style of wrestling.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 6, 2022 3:52:25 GMT -5
The success of WrestleMania was indicative of the boom, so I don't see a boom if WrestleMania fails. Wrestling in New York continues because it's a strong market and somebody else is going to pick up the pieces. However, the Crockett expansion has a better chance of succeeding given that they wouldn't be in such a rush to bankrupt themselves to try to keep up with Vince. The 80's boom was pretty much the reason for the 90's boom, so without the first boom and Vince's ambition to make wrestling mainstream entertainment, it's hard to envision a boom happening that compares to what Vince triggered with Rock & Wrestling and Hulkamania. My understanding of Crockett's problems is that, yeah, trying to keep up was part of it, but he also wanted the syndication money Vince was getting without having a proper understanding of how it worked, so he grossly overestimated the income he'd get from acquiring everyone's TV deals. That could have still happened to him even without Vince keeping the pressure on.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Apr 6, 2022 4:32:45 GMT -5
I wonder if it's possible Vince goes to MTV, hat in hand and sells a portion to them to get the cash to pay Monsoon, Skaaland and the others I don't know off the top of my head? They had to see some potential in WWF and the success of War to the Settle the Score, even if Mania fails...
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Ozman
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Post by Ozman on Apr 6, 2022 5:51:45 GMT -5
I do wonder if WCCW expands further on cable. I believe World Class was the territory probably in the best position to go national besides the World Wrestling Federation. Crockett, Vern, and Watts all seemed behind the times compared to World Class. In fact, my first introduction to pro wrestling was watching World Class in around 83 or 84, over a year before I saw Vince’s product for the first time at the first Saturday Night’s Main Event in 1985.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Apr 6, 2022 8:17:37 GMT -5
Was it even possible for it to be some kind of massive failure? It was in MSG so they only had to sell around 20,000 tickets which wasn't difficult for them. PPV wasn't really a thing in wrestling yet (The Wrestling Classic later that year would be the first ever). And no one in 1985 would have been expecting a card full of high work-rate matches. I guess if the media completely ignored it and didn't give it any press even with Ali/etc it would have been a disappointment but I think it's an exaggeration that the company would have went bankrupt like they try to say on documentaries. I always thought they went with that narrative because the all or nothing thing sounds more romantic. How much more did they invest in this show than a normal MSG show? They had all the celebrities involved and I have no idea how much they were paid, or how much more they invested in advertising.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 6, 2022 8:34:46 GMT -5
Was it even possible for it to be some kind of massive failure? It was in MSG so they only had to sell around 20,000 tickets which wasn't difficult for them. PPV wasn't really a thing in wrestling yet (The Wrestling Classic later that year would be the first ever). And no one in 1985 would have been expecting a card full of high work-rate matches. I guess if the media completely ignored it and didn't give it any press even with Ali/etc it would have been a disappointment but I think it's an exaggeration that the company would have went bankrupt like they try to say on documentaries. I always thought they went with that narrative because the all or nothing thing sounds more romantic. How much more did they invest in this show than a normal MSG show? They had all the celebrities involved and I have no idea how much they were paid, or how much more they invested in advertising. It was far more than just a MSG show. They had venues all over the country rented out for closed circuit broadcast. That cost a pretty penny. As mentioned in another post to prepare for Mania and national touring Vince PAID local stations to air WWF instead of local promotions (who generally their programming free to the station but never paid a station to air it). more Vince had a lot invested in Mania. It may be an exaggeration that he had everything but it was a lot. Mania failing may not have meant the end of the WWF but it could have meant the end of Vince owning it.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Apr 6, 2022 10:29:39 GMT -5
I do wonder if WCCW expands further on cable. I believe World Class was the territory probably in the best position to go national besides the World Wrestling Federation. Crockett, Vern, and Watts all seemed behind the times compared to World Class. In fact, my first introduction to pro wrestling was watching World Class in around 83 or 84, over a year before I saw Vince’s product for the first time at the first Saturday Night’s Main Event in 1985. If Kevin Von Erich can be believed, on the WWE documentary about WCCW, he said Fritz did not want to go national.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Apr 6, 2022 11:56:44 GMT -5
I believe World Class was the territory probably in the best position to go national besides the World Wrestling Federation. Crockett, Vern, and Watts all seemed behind the times compared to World Class. In fact, my first introduction to pro wrestling was watching World Class in around 83 or 84, over a year before I saw Vince’s product for the first time at the first Saturday Night’s Main Event in 1985. If Kevin Von Erich can be believed, on the WWE documentary about WCCW, he said Fritz did not want to go national. I believe there were others in the Heroes of World Class doc who confirmed that story, though I can't remember specifically who.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 6, 2022 12:25:18 GMT -5
Was it even possible for it to be some kind of massive failure? It was in MSG so they only had to sell around 20,000 tickets which wasn't difficult for them. PPV wasn't really a thing in wrestling yet (The Wrestling Classic later that year would be the first ever). And no one in 1985 would have been expecting a card full of high work-rate matches. I guess if the media completely ignored it and didn't give it any press even with Ali/etc it would have been a disappointment but I think it's an exaggeration that the company would have went bankrupt like they try to say on documentaries. I always thought they went with that narrative because the all or nothing thing sounds more romantic. This is an interesting thought. They definitely had to spend a lot of money on the closed circuit venues, but by the time WrestleMania had come around, they'd already done the two huge MTV shows, they were already on USA Network, and I believe they were already in the process of doing the Saturday Night's Main Event deal with NBC. They already had the LJN toy line. By the time they decided to do Wrestlemania, all signs were pointing to it being a huge success for them, even if it might have underperformed expectations. And had it lost money, they still had the structure in place to bring in new fans and big revenues. Similar to how Wrestlemania XIV was very expensive to put on with Tyson, but it put them on a path to make it all back and then some.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Apr 6, 2022 14:34:46 GMT -5
How would it have failed? It was always going to sell out. We’re they looking at closed circuit/ppv buys?
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