What is the top U.S. indie?

[oxbaker]

With ROH now under the AEW umbrella and Evolve having gone away, what’s the top U.S. indie promotion now where talent will get noticed and make their bones?

I guess you could argue that ROH through its old AXS deal and later Sinclair was kind of in a gray area as far as ‘lowest major/highest indie’ status, but regardless that has changed. We know ROH brought us, in various ways, the Elite guys/founding fathers in AEW, Adam Cole and reDragon and further back the likes of Samoa Joe/CMP/Kevin Owens and a bunch of others too numerous to mention, but that doesn’t look like it’s going to be the indie pipeline anymore.

So what, if anything, will be? I saw where only two non-WWE shows (one being ROH) drew more than 1,000 on WM weekend, so nothing there seems to stand out above the rest.

How would we rank the top indies now?

[chrom]

I say MLW is the top indie promotion right now.

[nihilismizhawt]

Apr 8, 2022 11:09:30 GMT -5 oxbaker said:

With ROH now under the AEW umbrella and Evolve having gone away, what’s the top U.S. indie promotion now where talent will get noticed and make their bones?

I guess you could argue that ROH through its old AXS deal and later Sinclair was kind of in a gray area as far as ‘lowest major/highest indie’ status, but regardless that has changed. We know ROH brought us, in various ways, the Elite guys/founding fathers in AEW, Adam Cole and reDragon and further back the likes of Samoa Joe/CMP/Kevin Owens and a bunch of others too numerous to mention, but that doesn’t look like it’s going to be the indie pipeline anymore.

So what, if anything, will be? I saw where only two non-WWE shows (one being ROH) drew more than 1,000 on WM weekend, so nothing there seems to stand out above the rest.

How would we rank the top indies now?

"doesn’t look like it’s going to be the indie pipeline anymore" is a rather presumptuous statement. AEW literally has had like 500-600 indie wrestlers on it's show the last few years. 

Impact has been number 3 for a long time, ROH wasn't even running shows for a while. After the MSG show, ROH lost any chance of being #3. 

[chazraps]

GCW is the only one to hit terrestrial PPV.

Kind of strange how we're in uncharted territory with how to evaluate indy presence. Like, PWG is *only* doing physical media, GCW is *only* doing streaming and terrestrial PPV - so the metrics/reach/numbers is really hard to compare.

[chazraps]

Also, ROH stopped being an indy in at least 2015 - probably 2012 when Sinclair purchased it. I wouldn't consider them or Impact indys as they aren't independent of a mega-conglomerate that they have to answer to.

[oxbaker]

Apr 8, 2022 11:19:44 GMT -5 nihilismizhawt said:

Apr 8, 2022 11:09:30 GMT -5 oxbaker said:

With ROH now under the AEW umbrella and Evolve having gone away, what’s the top U.S. indie promotion now where talent will get noticed and make their bones?

I guess you could argue that ROH through its old AXS deal and later Sinclair was kind of in a gray area as far as ‘lowest major/highest indie’ status, but regardless that has changed. We know ROH brought us, in various ways, the Elite guys/founding fathers in AEW, Adam Cole and reDragon and further back the likes of Samoa Joe/CMP/Kevin Owens and a bunch of others too numerous to mention, but that doesn’t look like it’s going to be the indie pipeline anymore.

So what, if anything, will be? I saw where only two non-WWE shows (one being ROH) drew more than 1,000 on WM weekend, so nothing there seems to stand out above the rest.

How would we rank the top indies now?

"doesn’t look like it’s going to be the indie pipeline anymore" is a rather presumptuous statement. AEW literally has had like 500-600 indie wrestlers on it's show the last few years. 

Impact has been number 3 for a long time, ROH wasn't even running shows for a while. After the MSG show, ROH lost any chance of being #3. 

I suppose we define ‘pipeline’ differently.

Once upon a time, an indie wrestler could sign with ROH and get noticed there and WWE (and later AEW) might sign them to the ‘big time.’

Look at the AEW roster: not just Punk/Danielson/now Samoa Joe from eras past, but a ton of others (Lethal, SCU, Cole/Fish/O’Reilly, etc. — I won’t list them all, you know who they are). Same with WWE.

The ‘pipeline’ was like working in the Second City troupe in Chicago or Toronto and getting discovered and signed by Saturday Night Live and then becoming a bigger star with movies, etc.

Now that ROH is basically a wholly-owned subsidiary of AEW (technically owned separately by Tony Khan but his interviews have made it clear that AEW guys will be a big part of ROH, perhaps with a few signings of recent ROH talent; and his first ROH show had a heavy AEW flavor to the point of moving many of the belts over to ‘his guys’), how is that a pipeline? If you’re on ROH because you’re already signed to AEW, you’re past the pipeline stage … you’re not using it to get to AEW since you’re already there and you’re also bound to AEW so you’re not going to WWE til your deal is up.

So yeah they may use indie guys on a per-appearance basis but so has WWE to a lesser extent (including NXT enhancement talent). That’s not the same as being a pipeline indie where people get discovered.

As for Impact, yes they carried on tapings to a greater degree when ROH shut down for COVID but I don’t think they’ve ever gone on the road and done live shows the way ROH did over its existence. Impact/TNA was pretty much a TV tapings company with very little success outside of that and eventually almost no touring. So I’d say for most of the time Impact has been around, ROH was the bigger ‘indie’ … but that’s of course debatable. But during the TNA years, that was the No. 2 (the way AEW is now) to WWE, not an indie promotion. So apples and oranges.

Funny you should mention the 10K All In. That was an ROH production (with Cody and the Bucks, who had been ROH mainstays). That led to the very creation of AEW. I’d say ultimately doing that show ‘killed’ ROH because it prompted the creation of AEW under Tony Khan, who of course snatched up that talent and gutted the roster. (Hey, that’s business, not throwing shade, but it is what it is.)

[oxbaker]

Apr 8, 2022 11:22:51 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Also, ROH stopped being an indy in at least 2015 - probably 2012 when Sinclair purchased it. I wouldn't consider them or Impact indys as they aren't independent of a mega-conglomerate that they have to answer to.

Yeah, I tried to address that in the original post.

But of course read Tony Khan interviews and you could create a drinking game for every time he says ‘Warner Media’ and it’s clear that while they may not be calling the shots, he’s also very keen to appease them (which we presume has been why he hasn’t signed the Briscoes after reports that a higher-up at Warner doesn’t want it) — even to ROH, which isn’t on any Warner TV show.

[nickcave]

Just judging by what I see on Twitter I would guess GCW

[Mozenrath]

PWG, GCW, and MLW all have claims to it, I would think. It really comes down to what your metric is.

[Deleted]

NWA?

Nah not them.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

In terms of being a traditional indie I’d say GCW. But Mozenrath post about how PWG, MLW, and GCW all have claims to it is a great argument. Here is my reasoning why it is GCW as we traditionally understand an indie.

PWG: This has never really been a traditional indie or at least only briefly was when it first popped up. For most of its existence it has been a super indie where the best indie dream matches possible happen. They probably could’ve gotten much bigger and maybe even crashed and burned in the process, but its kept some unique business practices in place that again sets it apart even the major indies.

MLW: In the strictest sense of the word MLW is still an indie. I hate to use the word “elevated” as I love indies of all sizes, but at this point it is nearly in that Impact or ROH level. I mean they attracted big money backing from Qatar based financiers which is just something you don’t hear happening with indie wrestling. The only thing that technically makes it still an indie is that Court Bauer still owns it himself. Yet, even then you could argue that MLW Media (the parent company behind the wrestling promotion and the radio company) makes it too big to be an indie. I mean not that long ago thinking an indie could even have a parent company seems ridiculous. Their owners tended to be the fat sketchy who sneaks out the back at intermission and stiffs all the workers.

GCW: The company has made it to Pay Per View and put on shows all over the country. These are the things that would make it less like a true indie. Yet, these just seem like elements of success rather than anything that really changes the definition of what it is. All, it needs is the TV deal and you can make the same MLW “Is it or is it now an indie?” argument.

[Garyspivey]

I’d say northeast wrestling is pretty high up there as far as indies go

[Mozenrath]

Apr 8, 2022 16:07:32 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

In terms of being a traditional indie I’d say GCW. But Mozenrath post about how PWG, MLW, and GCW all have claims to it is a great argument. Here is my reasoning why it is GCW as we traditionally understand an indie.

PWG: This has never really been a traditional indie or at least only briefly was when it first popped up. For most of its existence it has been a super indie where the best indie dream matches possible happen. They probably could’ve gotten much bigger and maybe even crashed and burned in the process, but its kept some unique business practices in place that again sets it apart even the major indies.

MLW: In the strictest sense of the word MLW is still an indie. I hate to use the word “elevated” as I love indies of all sizes, but at this point it is nearly in that Impact or ROH level. I mean they attracted big money backing from Qatar based financiers which is just something you don’t hear happening with indie wrestling. The only thing that technically makes it still an indie is that Court Bauer still owns it himself. Yet, even then you could argue that MLW Media (the parent company behind the wrestling promotion and the radio company) makes it too big to be an indie. I mean not that long ago thinking an indie could even have a parent company seems ridiculous. Their owners tended to be the fat sketchy who sneaks out the back at intermission and stiffs all the workers.

GCW: The company has made it to Pay Per View and put on shows all over the country. These are the things that would make it less like a true indie. Yet, these just seem like elements of success rather than anything that really changes the definition of what it is. All, it needs is the TV deal and you can make the same MLW “Is it or is it now an indie?” argument.

From the way Excalibur puts it, the reason PWG hasn't expanded is because Super Dragon is adamant about trying to keep the spirit of PWG the same and not outgrow it. Of course, I think it also helps that if they WERE bigger, they'd run higher risks, and Super Dragon wants it to live within its means. It also probably makes some places more permissive about who works the shows, versus if they had TV or something where there'd be more conflicts.

[Cyno]

I'd put Sinclair-era ROH, Impact, and even MLW in that "mid-major" category where they feel bigger than your typical indie promotion and have national backing of some kind. But they also are a far cry from the WWE's and AEW's of the country. I guess NWA would fit in there, too, though they feel a lot more "indy" than some of the bigger indy promotions.

So I'd say GCW or PWG is the biggest indie right now. At least that's what it feels like.

[DrBackflipsHoffman]

PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING GUERILLA (GORILLA)

[Convoy]

My vote is GCW. They are messy both in front and behind the camera, but they are consistent and are the showcase promotion for talent on the way up, as well as proudly outlaw talent with big followings that aren't meant for TV. With ROH where they are now, and PWG as inconsistent as they are, GCW is the top indie and overall #3 promotion in the US right now in my opinion.

[oxbaker]

I think it’s going to be interesting the next year or two now that (hopefully) the pandemic shutdown is behind us and indies can actually run shows on a more consistent basis to see if any of the mentioned (or some other promotion) can rise to fill that void.

[Deleted]

GCW.

People usually trash MLW when discussing it, and I know PWG has always had its devoted cult audience, but I barely hear/see anyone discussing it. Personally, I find it hard to care about indy matches from a couple months ago when I can see the same wrestlers elsewhere live.

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

It's hard for me to consider MLW an indie. They have a TV deal and have guys signed to long term contracts.

[CeilingFan]

GCW.