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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 18, 2022 20:13:13 GMT -5
For me it looks like this (granted my knowledge of boxing pre Ali is limited.)
#1: Muhammad Ali: The only heavyweight champ to really clean out the division in his era.
#2: George Foreman: Won the title in two definitively different eras in the sport and more than held his own with consensus #1 Evander Holyfield in the 90s
#3: Larry Holmes: Even though his era was pretty weak, his dominance as champion has oly been bested in terms of consecutive defenses once.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Apr 18, 2022 20:13:39 GMT -5
Joe Louis has the best resume in my view. In terms of modern times that some of us here can remember, I'd say Ali, especially when you consider the career he had despite missing out on some of his peak years. Tyson to me was a great fighter but far from an all time great. The division caught up to him and he was never really able to adjust.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 18, 2022 20:15:00 GMT -5
I think Foreman has to be in the conversation, not necessarily as number 1, but certainly among the best of all time. Dude was a straight up beast.
I’d love to see where Sonny Liston would be on these lists if he hadn’t thrown the fights to Ali.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 18, 2022 20:16:52 GMT -5
Tyson is a fascinating study for boxing, because he became the undisputed champion of the world by 20 years old, but his greatest enemy was himself (and Don King). It's weird to say that someone who was so good so quickly didn't fully realize all he could, but it feels like he could have been even more. Had Jimmy Jacobs (not that one) not died, or if Tyson stuck with Cayton over King I do wonder how Tyson's career would have continued.
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Post by Jazzman on Apr 18, 2022 21:08:13 GMT -5
So, according to Boxrec it's Ali by a good margin. Their ELO-ish rating has him at 1720, Joe Lewis is second at 1442, Lennox at 1325, Floyd Patterson at 1202, and Marciano rounds out the top five at 1123. Top 10 fills out with Evander, Waldimir, Gene Tunney, Sonny Liston, and Larry Holmes
I'm not sure of the gap being that big from Ali to the rest, but I do have him #1
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 18, 2022 21:20:38 GMT -5
I think Foreman has to be in the conversation, not necessarily as number 1, but certainly among the best of all time. Dude was a straight up beast. I’d love to see where Sonny Liston would be on these lists if he hadn’t thrown the fights to Ali. Liston didn't throw the first fight. Ali beat him. It's definitely debatable with the second, but not the first.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 18, 2022 21:49:16 GMT -5
Lennox Lewis never seemed to get his due, despite being in the same era as Tyson That tends to be my answer when this conversation comes up, but I’m far from a boxing historian
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 18, 2022 21:57:49 GMT -5
Lennox Lewis never seemed to get his due, despite being in the same era as Tyson That tends to be my answer when this conversation comes up, but I’m far from a boxing historian Lewis' resume is far more impressive than Tyson and way more diverse. The best name Tyson has is the dude that beat him twice (Holyfield) and an aging Larry Holmes. Michael Spinks too but he's more of an ATG LHW who dared to be great. Lewis not only beat the best of his era, he also beat the future beat of his era in Vitali (if you rematch the fight Lewis was starting to take over after the cut opened up) thats impressive.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 18, 2022 21:59:54 GMT -5
That tends to be my answer when this conversation comes up, but I’m far from a boxing historian Lewis' resume is far more impressive than Tyson and way more diverse. The best name Tyson has is the dude that beat him twice (Holyfield) and an aging Larry Holmes. Michael Spinks too but he's more of an ATG LHW who dared to be great. Lewis not only beat the best of his era, he also beat the future beat of his era in Vitali (if you rematch the fight Lewis was starting to take over after the cut opened up) thats impressive. Agreed. I worded it poorly, but I was absolutely throwing my hat in the ring for Lewis
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 18, 2022 22:26:04 GMT -5
I think Foreman has to be in the conversation, not necessarily as number 1, but certainly among the best of all time. Dude was a straight up beast. I’d love to see where Sonny Liston would be on these lists if he hadn’t thrown the fights to Ali. Liston didn't throw the first fight. Ali beat him. It's definitely debatable with the second, but not the first. I don’t think there’s any debate about the second fight. That was the worst dive I’ve ever seen. I’m still not convinced on the first fight. I think he quit on the stool as the easiest way out.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 18, 2022 22:27:56 GMT -5
Liston didn't throw the first fight. Ali beat him. It's definitely debatable with the second, but not the first. I don’t think there’s any debate about the second fight. That was the worst dive I’ve ever seen. I’m still not convinced on the first fight. I think he quit on the stool as the easiest way out. Hell Ali himself in the famous photo is yelling at Liston to cut the shit and fight him.
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Post by J. Hova on Apr 18, 2022 23:11:12 GMT -5
If Evander quit in about 98 or 99, I would say him. Unfortunately, due to him sleeping with any woman who maintained a body temperature somewhere roughly in the 90s, he kept fighting for a good decade plus than he should have.
That said, count me in on the Ali bandwagon.
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Post by buckethead on Apr 18, 2022 23:28:11 GMT -5
For as much as I have paid attention to boxing, I gotta say Tyson. I know that’s not the real answer, but for my money, I’ll just say him because I don’t know any better and I feel the urge to pipe in. It's Tyson...in the early phase of his career. An invincible machine. He would've knocked out all the other icons within a couple rounds.
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 18, 2022 23:38:30 GMT -5
Liston didn't throw the first fight. Ali beat him. It's definitely debatable with the second, but not the first. I don’t think there’s any debate about the second fight. That was the worst dive I’ve ever seen. I’m still not convinced on the first fight. I think he quit on the stool as the easiest way out. Liston came into that fight with an injured shoulder he was just convinced he'd beat Ali easily.
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 18, 2022 23:40:32 GMT -5
Liston didn't throw the first fight. Ali beat him. It's definitely debatable with the second, but not the first. I don’t think there’s any debate about the second fight. That was the worst dive I’ve ever seen. I’m still not convinced on the first fight. I think he quit on the stool as the easiest way out. Second fight wasn't a dive just watch the replays of that punch anyone that says that needs to rewatch it. He got caught with a punch to the chin, its the refree (Jersey Joe Walcott) who botched the count and botched the call of the fight
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Post by government mule on Apr 19, 2022 4:26:54 GMT -5
I mean statistically the answer is probably Ali, but my boxing idol is Lennox
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 19, 2022 6:32:59 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s any debate about the second fight. That was the worst dive I’ve ever seen. I’m still not convinced on the first fight. I think he quit on the stool as the easiest way out. Second fight wasn't a dive just watch the replays of that punch anyone that says that needs to rewatch it. He got caught with a punch to the chin, its the refree (Jersey Joe Walcott) who botched the count and botched the call of the fight I’ve watched it multiple times. No one is ever going to convince me that wasn’t a dive and a poorly executed one at that. I’m surprised there wasn’t a full blown riot afterwards.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 19, 2022 6:43:09 GMT -5
For as much as I have paid attention to boxing, I gotta say Tyson. I know that’s not the real answer, but for my money, I’ll just say him because I don’t know any better and I feel the urge to pipe in. It's Tyson...in the early phase of his career. An invincible machine. He would've knocked out all the other icons within a couple rounds. Hard for me to go that far with it. Looking back, a lot of the guys he beat are never going to be in the conversation of great heavyweight fighters. That’s not his fault, it just wasn’t a strong era. Put him in with a truly great fighter who isn’t afraid of him and you’ve got a completely different scenario. Tyson himself didn’t want to fight Foreman in the ‘90s because Cus D’Amato had show him the Foreman-Frazier fight and told him that a smaller aggressive fighter would always lose like that to a guy like a Foreman. He also thought Foreman was exaggerating the “old man” routine (which he was). When Don King pushed for the fight, Tyson apparently told him, “I’m not fighting that f***ing animal! If you love the motherf***er so much, you fight him!”
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 19, 2022 7:42:38 GMT -5
It's Tyson...in the early phase of his career. An invincible machine. He would've knocked out all the other icons within a couple rounds. Hard for me to go that far with it. Looking back, a lot of the guys he beat are never going to be in the conversation of great heavyweight fighters. That’s not his fault, it just wasn’t a strong era. Put him in with a truly great fighter who isn’t afraid of him and you’ve got a completely different scenario. Tyson himself didn’t want to fight Foreman in the ‘90s because Cus D’Amato had show him the Foreman-Frazier fight and told him that a smaller aggressive fighter would always lose like that to a guy like a Foreman. He also thought Foreman was exaggerating the “old man” routine (which he was). When Don King pushed for the fight, Tyson apparently told him, “I’m not fighting that f***ing animal! If you love the motherf***er so much, you fight him!” I agree with you on this. Tyson to me is the top 20 of HW's but he doesn't crack my top 10. I have so many others ahead of him even if they have less than stellar competition they've shown to rise when faced with adversity. Tyson has shown bravery but he really didn't deal with a great fighter. The Douglas fight started the slow decline of Mike and showed he was beatable. If he didn't do time for the rape charge, I think a fully motivated Bowe takes him out
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Post by MrElijah on Apr 19, 2022 7:55:10 GMT -5
It's Tyson...in the early phase of his career. An invincible machine. He would've knocked out all the other icons within a couple rounds. Hard for me to go that far with it. Looking back, a lot of the guys he beat are never going to be in the conversation of great heavyweight fighters. That’s not his fault, it just wasn’t a strong era. Put him in with a truly great fighter who isn’t afraid of him and you’ve got a completely different scenario. Tyson himself didn’t want to fight Foreman in the ‘90s because Cus D’Amato had show him the Foreman-Frazier fight and told him that a smaller aggressive fighter would always lose like that to a guy like a Foreman. He also thought Foreman was exaggerating the “old man” routine (which he was). When Don King pushed for the fight, Tyson apparently told him, “I’m not fighting that f***ing animal! If you love the motherf***er so much, you fight him!” Funny enough, Foreman said he didn't want to fight Tyson. It would've been fun to watch two Knockout Artists go at it.
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