Separating The Character From The Performer...

[sungod2020]

Where do you draw the line?

Inspired by recent threads such as "wrestlers who get a pass for being a horrible person" and it's cousin "those who don't deserve their bad reputation" I decided on making a thread on how much you can tolerate on said wrestlers on-screen character before hearing/seeing about them as a person becomes too much for you?

We all know pro wrestling is a scummy business and if you had a Hall of Fame to honor only the biggest saints(or the closest to being saints) it'll practically be a ghost town. Even light-hearted pranksters like Owen Hart had a dark side to him. Courtesy of wikipedia....

"Not all of Owen's pranks were friendly. In a shoot interview, Owen's brother Bret Hart recalled issues they had with George "The Animal" Steele when he was an agent for the WWE. Steele would allegedly charge wrestlers for being late, even by only a couple of minutes. When this happened to Owen and Bret, they stole Steele's expensive watch and threw it into a river.[13] Owen Hart's malicious "ribs" against George Steele continued when he pushed Steele down the steps of a bus. James Romero, in his "Owen Hart: King of Pranks", asserts that Owen forced another driver to lose control of their car at high speed as a rib."

Still though, it pales in comparison to the shit Dynamite Kid and others did, so I'll let it slide....at least until I find out a story that put him on Dynamite's level of cruelness.

With most people though, murder and rape is the limit, though some fans may even look past that which I think is beyond my comprehension. I mean, WWE obviously has a limit as they aren't going out of their way to honor Chris Benoit and even making sure he's persona non-grata. They'll acknowledge and give positive accolades to"Stone Cold" Steve Austin(wifebeater), Hulk Hogan(liar, dirty backstabbing politician, and racist), Ultimate Warrior(homophobe), Fabulous Moolah(alleged pimp) and others in their Hall of Fame. 

With me, I'll tolerate anything up until murder and rape, and in Dynamite Kid's case, animal cruelty. I'm sure there's more that will get my goat(alot of what Fritz Von Erich did dosen't sit well with me), but after awhile, it can get exhaustingly conflicting with who to honor/shun that you don't know which way to turn.

It makes me think, if I enjoyed said performers characters/matches when I was a kid and then I found out who they are behind the mask, does that make me guilty by association?

Your thoughts on the subject matter?

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I can and do it entirely.

I don’t know these people and them being a dick to other people I don’t know is unfortunate but it doesn’t bother me enough to stop watching people I find entertaining.

[Phosphor Glow]

i think it's kinda hard to say where the line is for me

for example, i can easily watch and enjoy a Chris Benoit match despite the awful things he did, because he's dead, he's not making money off of me watching him

The Briscoes, while their shittiness is less reprehensible than Benoit's (though still shitty!), they're still getting booked and making money, and i find it uncomfortable to watch them

so...maybe the line is "are they still making money off of being a wrestler"...maybe?

[Fade]

I have to do it for everything and anything.

In wrestling..Benoit’s probably the biggest example of it. I don’t mind watching footage but ..I find myself not wanting to 🤷

[Jumpin' Jesse Walsh]

It's possible to hold space for both, thought it's entirely subjective.

A wrestler can be entertaining and a terrible person.

One doesn't suddenly cancel out the other.

[Allie Kitsune]

I'm never 100% sure.

Like, I try not to put anyone on a pedestal in the first place, so I never feel like I'm _attached_ to them at all, or that their actions reflect upon me as a person...

...but I still don't want to go near anything Chris Benoit.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Chris Benoit basically taught me to not expect my entertainers to be good people. They might be good people, sure, and that's a nice bonus, but it's incidental - being a good person didn't get them to my TV screen. So when a wrestler doesn't have that sort of baggage, I kind of accept that I'm enjoying them until such time as I won't be.

I still haven't watched a Benoit match since 2007, though. It's very vibes, and I've never been able to pin down what makes the difference on whether I'm alright with the wrestler or not.

[clodhopper]

I find it very easy to separate them. As far as I'm concerned, Jon Moxley (as a random example) is every bit as fictional as Rocky Balboa. Even if it's somebody like John Cena, it's still John Cena, a character, played by John Cena, a performer. Not caring for a wrestler in real life won't put me off their matches any more than not liking an actor will stop me watching a film or any more than not caring for a musician will stop me enjoying one of their songs.

[James Fabiano]

Hmmmmm...

I guess it bothered me a bit less with wrestlers because I didn't expect as much out of them as I do with other performers. I tend to get upset a bit more when I find out, ahem, secrets about my favorite actresses or singers, for instance. (the rabbit hole I invented when I heard Bea Arthur didn't like Betty White for instance...)

I usually can look past most non-murder cases. And BTW, you forgot the WWE HOF has another murderer in it (Snuka) and someone who helped a murderer go free (Colon).

There's a certain celebrity winger who people attribute certain deaths to, but that's stepping over FAN boundaries.

Think Benoit was the "breaking point" because of the media coverage of it. It wasn't as high as with the other examples the OP named. Some of the examples in fact were pretty much just broken in the wrestling news field, so I guess you had to be a big insider fan to know about it. And past examples were before the Internet, TMZ, 24/7 news channels, etc.

[sungod2020]

Apr 29, 2022 21:44:20 GMT -5 James Fabiano said:

Hmmmmm...

I guess it bothered me a bit less with wrestlers because I didn't expect as much out of them as I do with other performers. I tend to get upset a bit more when I find out, ahem, secrets about my favorite actresses or singers, for instance. (the rabbit hole I invented when I heard Bea Arthur didn't like Betty White for instance...)

I usually can look past most non-murder cases. And BTW, you forgot the WWE HOF has another murderer in it (Snuka) and someone who helped a murderer go free (Colon).

Think Benoit was the "breaking point" because of the media coverage of it. It wasn't as high as with the other examples the OP named. Some of the examples in fact were pretty much just broken in the wrestling news field, so I guess you had to be a big insider fan to know about it. And past examples were before the Internet, TMZ, 24/7 news channels, etc.

Actually I don't know if Jimmy Snuka is still in the Hall of Fame anymore. His profile has been taken off their official website, yet I couldn't find an announcement that his HOF status has been revoked. Must've been his arrest in 2015(though he was never convicted since he wasn't mentally fit to stand trial) that brought attention outside of smark circles. 

Also, having trouble separating the character from the performer doesn't just apply to pro wrestlers, who are traditionally suppose to be one in the same. I mean, I doubt many people can separate funny, good-natured doctor Cliff Huxtable from evil rapist Bill Cosby, and I'm sure there's other non-wrestling examples out there that have tarnished their legacies. 

I guess in many cases it's best to bury your head in the sand because if you keep digging and digging, you wouldn't like what you see. 

[celtics543]

I think this is almost an IWC exclusive issue for most of the wrestlers. The same way that most people don't know every mean thing an actor has done and therefore can still enjoy their performance, the vast majority of wrestling fans aren't aware of the stuff that someone like Dynamite has done so they can easily still enjoy his work. The IWC is made up of such big fans that we all know everything these guys have done and it makes it harder to enjoy their work sometimes.

So unless you're Benoit, OJ Simpson, Bill Cosby, or whoever else was super mainstream and did the ultimate terrible things, almost none of the people watching them will really know about the other stuff.

[BorneAgain]

A lot of this is a case by case basis anyway. Benoit's a particularly difficult one because it's impossible to know how he was himself at the end, and if he'd never developed CTE what would have happened to him. By contrast, Tom Billington did not go to the same horrific place that Benoit did, but also had a whole lifetime of scumbag behavior that he actively defended to the end.

[James Fabiano]

Apr 30, 2022 7:13:25 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Apr 29, 2022 21:44:20 GMT -5 James Fabiano said:

Hmmmmm...

I guess it bothered me a bit less with wrestlers because I didn't expect as much out of them as I do with other performers. I tend to get upset a bit more when I find out, ahem, secrets about my favorite actresses or singers, for instance. (the rabbit hole I invented when I heard Bea Arthur didn't like Betty White for instance...)

I usually can look past most non-murder cases. And BTW, you forgot the WWE HOF has another murderer in it (Snuka) and someone who helped a murderer go free (Colon).

Think Benoit was the "breaking point" because of the media coverage of it. It wasn't as high as with the other examples the OP named. Some of the examples in fact were pretty much just broken in the wrestling news field, so I guess you had to be a big insider fan to know about it. And past examples were before the Internet, TMZ, 24/7 news channels, etc.

Actually I don't know if Jimmy Snuka is still in the Hall of Fame anymore. His profile has been taken off their official website, yet I couldn't find an announcement that his HOF status has been revoked. Must've been his arrest in 2015(though he was never convicted since he wasn't mentally fit to stand trial) that brought attention outside of smark circles. 

Also, having trouble separating the character from the performer doesn't just apply to pro wrestlers, who are traditionally suppose to be one in the same. I mean, I doubt many people can separate funny, good-natured doctor Cliff Huxtable from evil rapist Bill Cosby, and I'm sure there's other non-wrestling examples out there that have tarnished their legacies. 

I guess in many cases it's best to bury your head in the sand because if you keep digging and digging, you wouldn't like what you see. 

I heard that about Snuka. But they did also pay tribute to him after his passing. So not totally UnPersoned. (though I guess it would be an elephant in the room if they didn't...)

Actually, with the OP's examples again, Hogan WAS UnPersoned in 2015 for awhile of course. Austin was lucky he was out of the company at the time anyway. Moolah I think gets the vague Benoit treatment now ("[her opponent] in a match for the women's championship!") though again that issue can be a bit complicated. (I call attention to that guy online who claims it was started only by like two women)

How about Randy Savage, given what we now know through shoot interviews and DSOTR?

A HOF of total saints would have Bobby Eaton and no one else.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

I would like to say I have a hard and fast line.

I can draw one line - if they're dead, I can watch anything. Their families get their royalties now, and they typically did nothing wrong.

I wouldn't go out of my way to watch them - but I can sit through it, broadly.

If they're still alive - it's really variable. Broadly, if they are clearly a sexual predator, I won't support the wrestler by paying to see them or any show they're booked on.

Some people are grey areas. Jimmy Havoc, for example, got blackballed but I know quite people who know him and his accuser that make it sound more complicated. Being an abuser doesn't automatically make one a predator - and I feel like being an abuser is something I am willing to let people come back from. Being a predator is not.

Some guys get credibly accused of shit and still get booked, like Tyrus in NWA, who I will not pay money to see.

Some guys the accusations themselves end up being shaky, or at least I UNDERSTAND why a promoter finds them shaky - Jay Lethal got almost no backlash, so he got hired for AEW. I just skip his segments whenever possible

Some people it's about their views. I just largely avoid finding out wrestler views except through specific channels like queer superfans who spotlight pro LGBTQAI plus stuff

If they don't feel a need to openly discuss shit, I just ignore that

Some people change their views too. The Briscoes evidently have

[Desi]

I can watch performers who are bad people because I'm not going to punish myself for enjoying something before I found out they were bad.

However, I do not actively endorse their work to others unless absolutely necessary and with proper context, nor would I support said person financially (like buying their merch.)

[Jacy Jayne Atomic Dog AMV]

That bit about Owen and George Steele is way funnier than it should be. Dude ran out of pranks and just shoved him down some stairs.

We hear too much about Owen's elaborate pranks I wanna hear about the ones that weren't creative at all and just kinda f***ed up.

[jason1980s]

Apr 30, 2022 10:59:18 GMT -5 Jacy Jayne Atomic Dog AMV said:

That bit about Owen and George Steele is way funnier than it should be. Dude ran out of pranks and just shoved him down some stairs.

We hear too much about Owen's elaborate pranks I wanna hear about the ones that weren't creative at all and just kinda f***ed up.

I don't think it's right Owen doing that to George, either "prank" but George could be very miserable. He was in ill health for years and very grumpy. I know a prank he tried to pull on a homeless person many years ago which involved him telling the man he would pay him to drive him to the next town but George's plan was not to pay him. It got reversed on him with the homeless man stealing his rental car and gear inside.

For as much as George got from wrestling I think he was very bitter. One of the worst fan encounters I ever saw was George was a video of him being a total jerk to a fan who made a custom George shirt and wanted him to hold it so he could take a video. George was soft spoken but berated the fan the entire video about not being willing to hold the shirt up because the fan would use it, without paying George, for free publicity for the shirt. I get we all have our bad days but I've heard/read more crappy stories about George than good. And I am a big fan. He personally responded to me on email that he was willing to help a teacher of mine who had Crohn's disease though my teacher didn't really want to follow through.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Very few people in wrestling are getting royalties, the network doesn't pay anyone not named Mcmahon a penny unless they're producing new content.

Even knowing that, if I find someone's a turd outside of the ring, I just can't watch their work. I used to be a big Marty Jannetty mark, for example, but i can't in good conscience watch a man who's proud of doing things he should have served prison time for. Too many people in this life have done awful things and walked away without suffering any real consequences, i don't care how good they are at one thing, I can't remain a fan in good conscience.

[nate5054]

Benoit really is the only one I can't separate.

[smokinvokoun86]

I can do it pretty easily at this point.

It does take time. I couldn’t comfortably watch Chris Benoit matches for a long time. But once I started doing Nitro re-watches, it was getting easier to just take all the horrible stuff he did out of my mind and enjoy Whats on screen.

Same with Hogan matches. I still enjoy watching old Hulk Hogan despite him being racist. Again it takes time, but eventually, you can separate Hulk Hogan from Terry Bollea.

I don’t blame people who can’t separate. But I feel like that it’s not worth boycotting if the list of people to boycott is insanely long. Celebrities are human beings. Sometimes, real shitty human beings. And I don’t really know these people at all. And really, I don’t want to know them. I figure the more you’re able to separate the artist from art, the happier you would be.