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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 25, 2022 16:33:29 GMT -5
There is no hot rising face or indie darling being buried in a stupid manner to make the fans spend the show pissed off at everyone and everything. They seem to be in the stage where talent are fired rather than subjected to prolonged misuse right now, when that changes, people will go back to being angry and fighting booking.
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ssdrivin
ALF
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Post by ssdrivin on May 25, 2022 16:42:03 GMT -5
I was just at a WWE live event this past Saturday night in Rockford Illinois, and Roman literally got the biggest cheers of the night. My point is that even though Roman might be played out to the diehard fans, the casual ones are very much into Roman. I mean, he wins a lot. It’s natural as someone not into the inner workings to be into winners. So of course he’d be over to them. I’m not even saying it as a damning statement about him, either. It’s just logical. And you’d think a company that knew how to make Hogan, Austin and Cena into stars would know that. The irritating thing about Cena, him having been the first one I really felt was being pushed far too hard without really having any story context to justify it, was that I did get very annoyed, and then bored, with him winning all the time. As did many others, given the popularity of "Cena wins" memes. But as soon as they stopped doing what, when they had him be a kind of veteran taking all comers from the midcard, seemingly giving others a chance to try their hand, hone their craft, without the aspect of him being an untouchable god at the top of the card, I actually started to like and appreciate him. I really don't even mind if somebody's considered a really good (kayfabe) wrestler, dominant in their sport, and so on. It's really just the grating way they present it. There's nothing actively wrong with Cena, or even Roman, but it's that WWE style of rubbing their chosen guys all over your face until you lash out and say "hey, quit it, that's stupid and annoying" (and then beyond that, even after many of us get fed up). Just give them some sort of actual character instead of Generic Brick Wall #3. That way the kids can enjoy their superhero characters and some of the rest of us who expect more from our storytelling can enjoy those same characters too, without getting annoyed at the lack of depth or development.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on May 25, 2022 16:47:53 GMT -5
I do see your point. If you’re going to a WWE house show, you’re not exactly going there because you’re not aware of what the product is or of how rarely it comes to your neck of the woods since, 99% of the time, you aren’t getting TV. That isn’t something that can be seen as “casual” in the same way, like you said, you get tickets to a concert or even something like Game Grumps live or something. Nobody goes to that stuff on a whim. But then I’ve found the hardcore and casual debate tedious and dull so I’m slightly biased there. But I do stand by my point of if you’re a regular WWE fan, winners are the people who win so those fans cheer winners because that’s how the programming works. Roman has largely always won though, and he hasn't always been as popular as he is now. Yeah, people weren't booing Roman because he wasn't winning enough. Quite the opposite, the matches he lost usually got massive pops because people didn't want him to win. How many times was he the runner up in the Rumble because they knew people would go crazy for the person eliminating him? I think it's as simple as people like him more because he turned heel and the Tribal Chief character is way cooler than babyface Roman. Like the "insert city name...acknowledge me" line is so badass you can't help but cheer it even if he's a heel, kinda like Scott Hall's "hey yo."
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Post by eJm on May 25, 2022 16:50:37 GMT -5
I mean, he wins a lot. It’s natural as someone not into the inner workings to be into winners. So of course he’d be over to them. I’m not even saying it as a damning statement about him, either. It’s just logical. And you’d think a company that knew how to make Hogan, Austin and Cena into stars would know that. The irritating thing about Cena, him having been the first one I really felt was being pushed far too hard without really having any story context to justify it, was that I did get very annoyed, and then bored, with him winning all the time. As did many others, given the popularity of "Cena wins" memes. But as soon as they stopped doing what, when they had him be a kind of veteran taking all comers from the midcard, seemingly giving others a chance to try their hand, hone their craft, without the aspect of him being an untouchable god at the top of the card, I actually started to like and appreciate him. I really don't even mind if somebody's considered a really good (kayfabe) wrestler, dominant in their sport, and so on. It's really just the grating way they present it. There's nothing actively wrong with Cena, or even Roman, but it's that WWE style of rubbing their chosen guys all over your face until you lash out and say "hey, quit it, that's stupid and annoying" (and then beyond that, even after many of us get fed up). Just give them some sort of actual character instead of Generic Brick Wall #3. That way the kids can enjoy their superhero characters and some of the rest of us who expect more from our storytelling can enjoy those same characters too, without getting annoyed at the lack of depth or development. Will Washington, part of Fightful, raised a good point about Cena when he was getting his ME push since he’s rewatching the 2004/5 stuff; Cena wasn’t great on the bigger stage when he started. Whether it’s out of nerves or ability or being thrown into the deep end with your Angles, Jerichos and HHHs, the crowd could tell he was being pushed without that factor so they booed him for it. As much as we talk about WWE crowds and what they like, they can tell if someone is good at their craft and can do things and the people he got cheered over could do that. And yeah, my issue with Cena was that he was just a mould and creative didn’t give him a character that would be able to grab me until way later in his run when he was experienced. Roman had the same issue, really. The problem is now that he has a character that people can bounce off, there’s really nobody for him to bounce off from since he beat most of them and, outside or Drew and Cody, the people left wouldn’t be credible at all to the audience. Hence why fans are cheering him because he’s seen as that dude.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 25, 2022 17:43:12 GMT -5
Roman has largely always won though, and he hasn't always been as popular as he is now. But there was other, more popular people ahead of him, hence where the rebellion started. All of them have now have either left the company, retired or lost to Roman. And now that they’ve actually decided he wins consistently and the main resistance is gone, people like him because he’s an actually consistent winner and not, say, a guy who stumbles into a Royal Rumble win because his cousin helped him out. I think it’s the character change that has gotten crowds to like him, not the winning. The Tribal Chief character suits him well and is over.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
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Post by Chiral on May 25, 2022 18:36:25 GMT -5
If you're terminally online and deep inside the IWC bubble you might think this Roman run is "misery booking" but when you venture into the real world Just tag me next time!
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on May 25, 2022 20:34:01 GMT -5
I'm cool with it. The post Mania crowds that always tried to make themselves bigger than the show is played out. Too be honest I have watched the last few Post Mania RAWs all the way through......And they have sucked major ass. There hasn't really been anything to point out about those RAWs which makes them worthy of being hijacked. The only thing that got the needle to rise was Ezekiel and Kevin Owens Segment. Usually I love post Mania RAWs but the last 3-4 of them have sucked to the point that sitting through them was a chore
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Post by Starshine on May 25, 2022 21:07:07 GMT -5
I genuinely don't understand the take on being against the loud and raucous crowds. It really comes off as the 'curmudgeonly old man sitting on his porch complaining about the kids playing outside' energy. In a nutshell it's basically this: Pro wrestling is objectively better when the crowds are actively loud. It's why the stuff during the pandemic felt so off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2022 22:00:58 GMT -5
Cheering Solo Sikoa over the rich redneck with a heart of gold feels like a rebellious act to me!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2022 22:03:13 GMT -5
I'm cool with it. The post Mania crowds that always tried to make themselves bigger than the show is played out. Too be honest I have watched the last few Post Mania RAWs all the way through......And they have sucked major ass. There hasn't really been anything to point out about those RAWs which makes them worthy of being hijacked. The only thing that got the needle to rise was Ezekiel and Kevin Owens Segment. Usually I love post Mania RAWs but the last 3-4 of them have sucked to the point that sitting through them was a chore I really think the superstar shakeup episodes of Raw and SD are the new WM after Raw.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on May 25, 2022 22:12:14 GMT -5
I feel like the one-two punch of AEW starting up and Kofi getting squashed by Lesnar did it, and then the year and change of no crowds solidified the change.
Moreso than the fanbase drifting to AEW, I think AEW's existence is, like...a release valve for the tension of a favorite getting a raw deal in WWE. Sure, WWE will always still be screwing guys up. But that's no longer the only chance any of those wrestlers has at being on cable in the US. I imagine it's hard to get up the energy for such a rebellion when, like, wait six months and the wrestler you like might be released and wrestling for the other guys.
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Post by stoptheclocks on May 26, 2022 1:55:14 GMT -5
I genuinely don't understand the take on being against the loud and raucous crowds. It really comes off as the 'curmudgeonly old man sitting on his porch complaining about the kids playing outside' energy. In a nutshell it's basically this: Pro wrestling is objectively better when the crowds are actively loud. It's why the stuff during the pandemic felt so off. I don't think anyone has said they are against loud and raucous crowds, have they? To your point, if you went to a concert and a proportion of the audience spent all of it shitting on the band, and chanting for random other acts during the set to amuse themselves... I can see why people would think that was obnoxious.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 26, 2022 2:20:16 GMT -5
I genuinely don't understand the take on being against the loud and raucous crowds. It really comes off as the 'curmudgeonly old man sitting on his porch complaining about the kids playing outside' energy. In a nutshell it's basically this: Pro wrestling is objectively better when the crowds are actively loud. It's why the stuff during the pandemic felt so off. Who's against raucous crowds? I've only seen people including myself say it's unsatisfying watching a show that the live audience is actively shitting on
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Post by Starshine on May 26, 2022 2:42:09 GMT -5
I genuinely don't understand the take on being against the loud and raucous crowds. It really comes off as the 'curmudgeonly old man sitting on his porch complaining about the kids playing outside' energy. In a nutshell it's basically this: Pro wrestling is objectively better when the crowds are actively loud. It's why the stuff during the pandemic felt so off. I don't think anyone has said they are against loud and raucous crowds, have they? To your point, if you went to a concert and a proportion of the audience spent all of it shitting on the band, and chanting for random other acts during the set to amuse themselves... I can see why people would think that was obnoxious. Crowds don’t buy to concerts to boo the band. If that actually happened the question would be: what went so wrong with the concert? The “amuse themselves” line is such crap. If they’re not amused by what’s in front of them, would you prefer they sit on their hands in silence, or do we accept they bought their tickets and are allowed to have fun in spite of the quality of show in front of them. It’s not as if they’re hurting anyone. Again, total “old man sitting in the porch” energy.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on May 26, 2022 3:28:12 GMT -5
Crowds hijacking the show has been completely replaced by ambivalence and crowds sandbagging a boring show. They not longer have to make their own fun, they just hop on their phones while the production crew pumps in fake crowd sounds.
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Post by eJm on May 26, 2022 5:58:24 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has said they are against loud and raucous crowds, have they? To your point, if you went to a concert and a proportion of the audience spent all of it shitting on the band, and chanting for random other acts during the set to amuse themselves... I can see why people would think that was obnoxious. Crowds don’t buy to concerts to boo the band. If that actually happened the question would be: what went so wrong with the concert? The “amuse themselves” line is such crap. If they’re not amused by what’s in front of them, would you prefer they sit on their hands in silence, or do we accept they bought their tickets and are allowed to have fun in spite of the quality of show in front of them. It’s not as if they’re hurting anyone. Again, total “old man sitting in the porch” energy. I feel like we do have to differentiate pro wrestling from other forms of entertainment. Crowds go to shows to expect to be entertained with the stable of talent assembled. If they aren’t, well, that’s the show’s fault and it feels like a cop out to just blame the crowd. If a band doesn’t play a certain song from their greatest hits (without good reason, Paramore not playing a song because they regretted it for example), the crowd aren’t going to be happy with it. Same with if your team does crap in a certain sport, people will boo. Have there been shit crowds? Yeah, ask the crowd that slut shamed a whole women’s match at WrestleMania weekend. But to entirely say that WWE didn’t fuel that by hyping them up or giving them literal Slammys is also a bit disengeous to ignore.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on May 26, 2022 10:30:13 GMT -5
Crowds don’t buy to concerts to boo the band. If that actually happened the question would be: what went so wrong with the concert? The “amuse themselves” line is such crap. If they’re not amused by what’s in front of them, would you prefer they sit on their hands in silence, or do we accept they bought their tickets and are allowed to have fun in spite of the quality of show in front of them. It’s not as if they’re hurting anyone. Again, total “old man sitting in the porch” energy. I feel like we do have to differentiate pro wrestling from other forms of entertainment. Crowds go to shows to expect to be entertained with the stable of talent assembled. If they aren’t, well, that’s the show’s fault and it feels like a cop out to just blame the crowd. If a band doesn’t play a certain song from their greatest hits (without good reason, Paramore not playing a song because they regretted it for example), the crowd aren’t going to be happy with it. Same with if your team does crap in a certain sport, people will boo. Have there been shit crowds? Yeah, ask the crowd that slut shamed a whole women’s match at WrestleMania weekend. But to entirely say that WWE didn’t fuel that by hyping them up or giving them literal Slammys is also a bit disengeous to ignore. I would suggest that it's _especially_ important for wrestling promoters to put on a good show for the audience _because_ that crowd energy is essential to the show's success and to selling the quality of the show for future events. Sure, a quiet, non-rebellious crowd might be easier for WWE to "control", but there comes a point where those folks looking at the phones in the stands decide they don't need to spend between $50-600 a ticket to do that.
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