chazraps
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Post by chazraps on May 26, 2022 17:50:20 GMT -5
Speaking fully outside kayfabe terms for a bit while I'm on a shoot interview kick.
I love Kevin Nash's shoots. He's an entertaining guy with a cool head and is very thoughtful in his comments so this is in no way an attack on him, just a disagreement with his issues with Bret's finish from the February 1996 cage match.
As Nash has said, he wanted Bret to look fully defeated by the jackknife and just as Diesel's about to leave the cage, THEN Taker interferes to help build toward their Wrestlemania match. Bret didn't want to do that because he thought it would make him look weak if it looked like he couldn't win in the cage.
Taker responded with the highly quotable "Motherf***er, not everything is about you," as (according to Nash) both he and Taker saw it as Bret seeing the finish as being all about Bret.
Thing is, Bret spent the better part of 1995 giving so much to help establish Diesel. Even the Survivor Series 95 finish, which looks like it happened because Diesel in a moment of weakness took pity on Bret, concludes post three count with Nash obliterating everyone in sight and proceeding to further bomb Bret.
Then, two months later at the Royal Rumble, Diesel's interference again is what stops Undertaker from beating Bret for the belt.
So, a month before Wrestlemania where Bret is not only main eventing but supposed to make a first time champion look amazing in victory, Bret objected to two back-to-back big matches where his goose looks cooked except for interference.
Plus, what people remember about that match is Undertaker dragging Diesel to hell. It doesn't matter how you get there or where in the match it happens, that visual is/was really enough to further cement this Mania match as a big time deal.
So yeah, I side with Bret on that veto, but I'm curious to hear everyone else's thoughts on it as a viewer.
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Post by Aceorton on May 26, 2022 18:14:50 GMT -5
Jackknife or no jackknife, the result was the same: Bret was visibly beaten and only slipped away with the win because of Taker's interference. Diesel had low-blowed him and kicked him away decisively as he was starting to crawl out the door. So I guess I never really understood Nash and Taker's pissing and moaning. Bret basically just preferred to look like a Level 7 chump who was still fighting (unsuccessfully) to hang on rather than a Level 10 chump who got totally wiped out by the challenger's finisher.
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Post by BorneAgain on May 26, 2022 18:20:13 GMT -5
Nash's comments also ignore that Bret was shunted down to the mid-card for most of 1995 and that a few decisive victories were probably a bit merited; if for no other reason to help Shawn look even better in defeating him.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on May 26, 2022 18:22:04 GMT -5
I think it's a case of Bret Hart undervaluing himself perhaps.
I liked the idea of Taker and Nash having almost won the WWF Championship if not for getting in each other's way.
A couple of matches with men that were a foot taller than him and outweighed him by 100 lbs was pretty realistic as Bret's character was the finesse athlete, not a superhero overcoming the odds like Hogan.
I mean, Roger Federer loses occasionally but his previous accomplishments keep him a formidable name and credible threat for any up and comer tennis player to defeat and make a name for themselves.
Bret was the first 3x champion since Hogan at that point, put in a fantastic defence against Bulldog and was still the guy with a better resume than HBK regardless of the blip with Taker and Diesel.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 26, 2022 21:02:50 GMT -5
I get Bret from Bret's point of view, but I also get why 'Taker and Diesel would be annoyed, since yeah, Bret was looking out for his own interests to their detriment in not wanting to look like Undertaker cost Diesel the match.
That being said, it's also something that was on Vince and/or whoever was booking this for putting Bret in that position to begin with.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on May 26, 2022 21:34:33 GMT -5
I wonder if Bret made a stink for the Bolsheviks when the Hart Foundation squashed them at WrestleMania?
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on May 26, 2022 23:29:49 GMT -5
I wonder if Bret made a stink for the Bolsheviks when the Hart Foundation squashed them at WrestleMania? Yes, there's no difference between putting over the new ace tag team and a WrestleMania main eventer not wanting to look like a bitch |
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tirtefaa
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If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
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Post by tirtefaa on May 26, 2022 23:38:13 GMT -5
I wonder if Bret made a stink for the Bolsheviks when the Hart Foundation squashed them at WrestleMania? Yes, there's no difference between putting over the new ace tag team and a WrestleMania main eventer not wanting to look like a bitch Why does it matter? Shouldn't Boris Zhukov look out for his spot no matter how big or small it is? |
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Post by DSR on May 26, 2022 23:40:02 GMT -5
I enjoyed the Diesel/Taker feud, but I don't blame Bret for not wanting to look like a complete scrub.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 27, 2022 1:26:37 GMT -5
I enjoyed the Diesel/Taker feud, but I don't blame Bret for not wanting to look like a complete scrub. It's just one of those situations that shouldn't have happened in the first place. Bret was, understandably, trying to protect himself when he got frustrated, but Nash and 'Taker understandably were trying to protect their angle. Vince, naturally, putting guys in positions where someone has to be the asshole but he escapes scrutiny for being the one who set the situation up to begin with. |
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Post by Starshine on May 27, 2022 1:35:20 GMT -5
Yes, there's no difference between putting over the new ace tag team and a WrestleMania main eventer not wanting to look like a bitch Why does it matter? Shouldn't Boris Zhukov look out for his spot no matter how big or small it is? I'm pretty sure the Bolsheviks were broken up less than a month later. If Bret batted for them with that in mind, then he's a complete moron. |
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on May 27, 2022 2:19:37 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the Bolsheviks were broken up less than a month later. If Bret batted for them with that in mind, then he's a complete moron. The point I'm making is that the Bolsheviks were made to look like complete buffoons. I'm sure they weren't happy with it, but they rolled with it. Yes, they weren't former World champions, but at the end of the day they're trying to do the same thing that Bret was doing, which was to make a living. Once your credibility is gone, then you're likely not going to have a job for long. And in Zhukov's case he didn't. Besides, the Diesel and Hart match was, what..a 20 minute competitive match? Both Diesel and Hart had traded wins and this match wasn't exactly one sided, so having Diesel look threatening isn't going to hurt Bret's stock in the eyes of the fans. And honestly...it didn't, he was pretty teflon in my eyes, Bret was still my guy. But at the end of the day, most people weren't interested anyways no matter who the top guy was; Diesel, Bret, Shawn...no one was really drawing. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 27, 2022 9:10:59 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the Bolsheviks were broken up less than a month later. If Bret batted for them with that in mind, then he's a complete moron. The point I'm making is that the Bolsheviks were made to look like complete buffoons. I'm sure they weren't happy with it, but they rolled with it. Yes, they weren't former World champions, but at the end of the day they're trying to do the same thing that Bret was doing, which was to make a living. Once your credibility is gone, then you're likely not going to have a job for long. And in Zhukov's case he didn't. Besides, the Diesel and Hart match was, what..a 20 minute competitive match? Both Diesel and Hart had traded wins and this match wasn't exactly one sided, so having Diesel look threatening isn't going to hurt Bret's stock in the eyes of the fans. And honestly...it didn't, he was pretty teflon in my eyes, Bret was still my guy. But at the end of the day, most people weren't interested anyways no matter who the top guy was; Diesel, Bret, Shawn...no one was really drawing. ...I can't begin to start describing how not at all analogous the two situations you're describing are from one another. Like, holy shit. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on May 27, 2022 9:20:14 GMT -5
Question - Nash had already done his deal with WCW by the timw Wrestlemania came round.
I get out of respect for Taker, he had his working boots on despite having served notice, but why would it matter what he did with Bret Hart in February if he's already done?
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 27, 2022 11:26:41 GMT -5
Question - Nash had already done his deal with WCW by the timw Wrestlemania came round. I get out of respect for Taker, he had his working boots on despite having served notice, but why would it matter what he did with Bret Hart in February if he's already done? Based on most shoots Nash has done when the angle was laid out Nash hadn't committed to leaving for WCW yet but that meeting is one of the ones that put him over the edge between at the time him living in Phoenix, his wife being pregnant, and while champ he was making less that Shawn, Taker, Sid, and Bret |
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on May 27, 2022 14:50:59 GMT -5
I agree with Bret in that how he was presented in the matches with Taker and Diesel not only hurt him but it also hurt HBK and their Mania match. Granted I don't know if that's what Bret had in mind or if he was just looking out for solely his own interests but at the end of the day HBK/Bret was the main event an the title match and should've been a bigger priority over Taker/Diesel. So Bret basically lucking out twice takes away from the Mania main event and it also takes away from HBK who they wanted to be the guy going forward as he beat a champion was now a lot less formidable.
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Post by johnnyk9 on May 27, 2022 17:25:30 GMT -5
I remember seeing a Bret/Diesel house show cage match around the time and Bret barely winning that
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Post by Aceorton on May 27, 2022 23:32:25 GMT -5
I get Bret from Bret's point of view, but I also get why 'Taker and Diesel would be annoyed, since yeah, Bret was looking out for his own interests to their detriment in not wanting to look like Undertaker cost Diesel the match. Even without a jackknife, that's exactly what it looked like, though. Diesel had it won. He was going to make it out the door. Taker came through the ring and stopped him. Bret pulled himself together enough to scamper out over the top for a weak, opportunistic win. Diesel and Taker's WrestleMania match was still 100% a "You screwed me, I screwed you" grudge match, just like they wanted. It's not like Bret was demanding to have Diesel screaming in the Sharpshooter at the point Taker showed up. |
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