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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 20, 2022 17:23:32 GMT -5
Don't mean when ex-finishers become transitional moves or something. I meant more like when wrestlers just stopped performing the move quite like they used to, and thusly it lost some of its punch.
I thought of this when I remembered Barry Windham being the first person I saw to do what became the Impaler DDT. This was 1992-93 WCW. At first he performed it like the actual Impaler (elevate the victim, then fall back and complete the DDT...BW's was the "implant" BTW...) But eventually he just started doing it like a half-assed version of the Gourdbuster/front suplex.
Similar examples...
\Hacksaw Jim Duggan's three-point stance used to end in a jumping clothesline, not a regular clothesline.
The Walls of Jericho being a regular Boston Crab, and unlike the Lion Tamer.
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Post by Dub H on Jun 20, 2022 17:28:34 GMT -5
Most times it's safe to say it's due to health reasons like the pedigree going from a full on spike to the ground to soft face first because it just destroys your knees
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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 20, 2022 17:38:31 GMT -5
Most times it's safe to say it's due to health reasons like the pedigree going from a full on spike to the ground to soft face first because it just destroys your knees True enough. I wanted to find examples of changes "just because," but I doubt I can avoid changes that do have strong reasons behind them.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 20, 2022 17:39:15 GMT -5
Mox’s finisher looks more like a suplex than a DDT these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 20:34:26 GMT -5
Thankfully Dreamer's (and most others done now) death valley driver basically became an attitude adjustment
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 20, 2022 20:48:54 GMT -5
Don't mean when ex-finishers become transitional moves or something. I meant more like when wrestlers just stopped performing the move quite like they used to, and thusly it lost some of its punch. The Walls of Jericho being a regular Boston Crab, and unlike the Lion Tamer. There are reasons for this too... The swap from the Lion Tamer to the Original Walls of Jericho was due to injury concerns of the original Knee on the neck aspect of the Lion Tamer. The Walls going from an elevated Boston Crab to a regular Boston Crab was because Vince likes doing the "struggle" spots to get out of a hold... and you can't really do that with the Elevated Boston Crab. Jericho said he agreed with the idea at one point but Jericho is also a massive Carny. There was also talk like trying to get the taller wrestlers in the Elevated Crab just flat out didn't work.
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Post by Burst on Jun 20, 2022 20:55:57 GMT -5
Re: Jericho and the Walls vs the Liontamer, that change ended up feeling like an organic evolution over time IMO, in the sense of the Boston Crab Walls being the "normal" finisher and then the Liontamer is like the PPV special/climax super, if you will.
I think another pragmatic reason that has been brought up or at least implied, was the hypothetical flexibility of the wrestler receiving the move, in the sense of the Liontamer being fine when it's done to WCW cruiserweights and luchadors, but then when he comes to the WWF at a time when Billy Gunn was "average" in height, yeah, pretty much up until his 2007 return I can totally understand most receiving wrestlers not being able to take the Liontamer even if they wanted to.
I don't remember seeing the Liontamer much at all through most of his original WWE run until maybe around 2009ish, when it's like the influx of newer flexible guys like Kofi and Evan Bourne meant there were people that could actually take the Liontamer again, and then as your average wrestler has trended smaller and more flexible, I feel like he's definitely kept it around in his moveset even as he's moved to a more strike-based offense in his later career.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 20, 2022 20:56:21 GMT -5
Don't mean when ex-finishers become transitional moves or something. I meant more like when wrestlers just stopped performing the move quite like they used to, and thusly it lost some of its punch. The Walls of Jericho being a regular Boston Crab, and unlike the Lion Tamer. There are reasons for this too... The swap from the Lion Tamer to the Original Walls of Jericho was due to injury concerns of the original Knee on the neck aspect of the Lion Tamer. The Walls going from an elevated Boston Crab to a regular Boston Crab was because Vince likes doing the "struggle" spots to get out of a hold... and you can't really do that with the Elevated Boston Crab. Jericho said he agreed with the idea at one point but Jericho is also a massive Carny. There was also talk like trying to get the taller wrestlers in the Elevated Crab just flat out didn't work. Yeah, the taller Jericho's opponent, the more ungainly and heavy it's going to be to get the crab elevated.
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Post by Aceorton on Jun 20, 2022 21:25:44 GMT -5
There was a time when the LOD were routinely using the Doomsday Device without flipping the opponent, and it just wasn't the same.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jun 20, 2022 21:28:48 GMT -5
Re: Jericho and the Walls vs the Liontamer, that change ended up feeling like an organic evolution over time IMO, in the sense of the Boston Crab Walls being the "normal" finisher and then the Liontamer is like the PPV special/climax super, if you will. I think another pragmatic reason that has been brought up or at least implied, was the hypothetical flexibility of the wrestler receiving the move, in the sense of the Liontamer being fine when it's done to WCW cruiserweights and luchadors, but then when he comes to the WWF at a time when Billy Gunn was "average" in height, yeah, pretty much up until his 2007 return I can totally understand most receiving wrestlers not being able to take the Liontamer even if they wanted to. I don't remember seeing the Liontamer much at all through most of his original WWE run until maybe around 2009ish, when it's like the influx of newer flexible guys like Kofi and Evan Bourne meant there were people that could actually take the Liontamer again, and then as your average wrestler has trended smaller and more flexible, I feel like he's definitely kept it around in his moveset even as he's moved to a more strike-based offense in his later career. Plus, by the time we got to 2009, those smaller wrestlers were the guys that were teenagers or young adults pursuing wrestling training during the Monday Night War, so they wanted to take the real Jericho finish from their idol, and not the watered down version.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 20, 2022 21:33:54 GMT -5
Re: Jericho and the Walls vs the Liontamer, that change ended up feeling like an organic evolution over time IMO, in the sense of the Boston Crab Walls being the "normal" finisher and then the Liontamer is like the PPV special/climax super, if you will. I think another pragmatic reason that has been brought up or at least implied, was the hypothetical flexibility of the wrestler receiving the move, in the sense of the Liontamer being fine when it's done to WCW cruiserweights and luchadors, but then when he comes to the WWF at a time when Billy Gunn was "average" in height, yeah, pretty much up until his 2007 return I can totally understand most receiving wrestlers not being able to take the Liontamer even if they wanted to. I don't remember seeing the Liontamer much at all through most of his original WWE run until maybe around 2009ish, when it's like the influx of newer flexible guys like Kofi and Evan Bourne meant there were people that could actually take the Liontamer again, and then as your average wrestler has trended smaller and more flexible, I feel like he's definitely kept it around in his moveset even as he's moved to a more strike-based offense in his later career. knee to the head might be harder on some of the taller guys too but the WWE also had a rash of neck injuries around the time of Jericho's debut and officially banned the Piledriver a year after Jericho showed up... so I have a feeling he was told when he came in originally he couldn't do the neck thing. That said one of the first people I remember him doing the Liontamer proper in WWE (with the knee on the head) was actually on Cena during one of their feuds. But it wasn't during a match it was a beatdown exclamation point... but that would have been years into his WWE run (and probably after his first hiatus), where he was no longer the new guy coming into the company and was the respected WWE legend.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 20, 2022 21:47:30 GMT -5
Re: Jericho and the Walls vs the Liontamer, that change ended up feeling like an organic evolution over time IMO, in the sense of the Boston Crab Walls being the "normal" finisher and then the Liontamer is like the PPV special/climax super, if you will. I think another pragmatic reason that has been brought up or at least implied, was the hypothetical flexibility of the wrestler receiving the move, in the sense of the Liontamer being fine when it's done to WCW cruiserweights and luchadors, but then when he comes to the WWF at a time when Billy Gunn was "average" in height, yeah, pretty much up until his 2007 return I can totally understand most receiving wrestlers not being able to take the Liontamer even if they wanted to. I don't remember seeing the Liontamer much at all through most of his original WWE run until maybe around 2009ish, when it's like the influx of newer flexible guys like Kofi and Evan Bourne meant there were people that could actually take the Liontamer again, and then as your average wrestler has trended smaller and more flexible, I feel like he's definitely kept it around in his moveset even as he's moved to a more strike-based offense in his later career. knee to the head might be harder on some of the taller guys too but the WWE also had a rash of neck injuries around the time of Jericho's debut and officially banned the Piledriver a year after Jericho showed up... so I have a feeling he was told when he came in originally he couldn't do the neck thing. That said one of the first people I remember him doing the Liontamer proper in WWE (with the knee on the head) was actually on Cena during one of their feuds. But it wasn't during a match it was a beatdown exclamation point... but that would have been years into his WWE run (and probably after his first hiatus), where he was no longer the new guy coming into the company and was the respected WWE legend. Yeah, he also used it on Tyson Kidd and I think Kofi, too, so, younger guys who weren't way bigger than him.
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Post by Jake, The Jake, Jake on Jun 20, 2022 22:02:37 GMT -5
Rey Mysterio going from springboard hurricanrana, to springboard legdrop, to springboard body splash, to just regular body splash
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Jun 20, 2022 22:37:58 GMT -5
I don’t like that Miro always used the Super Accolade as his Game Over. It’s like Kurt angle’s Ankle lock. Should be the final form of the finisher when nothing else will work
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Post by 67 more on Jun 21, 2022 0:09:21 GMT -5
Rey Mysterio going from springboard hurricanrana, to springboard legdrop, to springboard body splash, to just regular body splash Which shows just how f***ed Rey's knees were in the early 2010s, that springboards were no longer an option. That stem cell treatment worked wonders for Rey.
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Post by tirtefaa on Jun 21, 2022 1:21:07 GMT -5
There was a brief period in 2004 when Chris Benoit was feuding with Edge and was locking the cross face across the neck instead of the face.
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jun 21, 2022 4:10:12 GMT -5
There was a time when the LOD were routinely using the Doomsday Device without flipping the opponent, and it just wasn't the same. That was likely compromise from the guy taking it. Some guys were terrified to take it, and I wouldn't trust Hawk either.
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Post by chrom on Jun 21, 2022 6:47:05 GMT -5
There was a time when the LOD were routinely using the Doomsday Device without flipping the opponent, and it just wasn't the same. That was around when they broke Henry O' Godwinn's neck
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 21, 2022 6:49:22 GMT -5
I feel like Naito could come out from under my bed when I am trying to go to sleep to beat the shit out of me, and I'd still kick out of the first Destino.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 21, 2022 7:00:37 GMT -5
There was a brief period in 2004 when Chris Benoit was feuding with Edge and was locking the cross face across the neck instead of the face. Like he'd continue doing that. (ducking)
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