How Important Are Wins and Losses?

[sungod2020]

So I remember a poster mentioning that certain wrestlers brag in shoot interviews about their wins and championships they "won," while conversely those moaping over their losses as if they were real and could've done something about it. Said poster then mentioned if they want control over their destiny and prove their worth(for real), they should go into MMA.

While I do agree that some guys are full of themselves, while others can lighten up since they didn't really win/lose anything, I do feel there is some merit to the outcome of the match. 

A win from a popular and rising star can add value with the audience and make them want to see him being featured more, including winning(sort of) a championship(if not the championship), whereas a loss(especially a series of losses) can hurt said performers stock, again in the eyes of the fans.

While I do agree that a big name like Hulk Hogan does get carried away with his unwillingness to job, his ego has some justification to it. I mean, it's Hulk Hogan, a win over essentially the biggest name in the business should mean something. He can't just job to anybody to spare their feelings. 

If he or any big name is/was ever professional about it, they could say they won't lose to said guy because a)he's not ready yet in the eyes of the fans, b)he's unprofessional backstage or even in the ring or any other reason that makes sense. Now, when it comes to Hogan agreeing to bring in Ultimate Warrior specifically to get his win back or not wanting to job back to Shawn Michaels in their proposed rematch, that's egotistical in my opinion.

It could be argued that "Rowdy" Roddy Piper was worse about it since he was reluctant to lose far past his prime when he was broken down and it even showed in his in-ring performance. He even managed to outpolitic Hogan which is pretty much unheard of.

Your thoughts on the subject matter?

[Natural Born Farmer]

Important enough that we ask about them.

There's advantages either way, but generally I think AEW is doing a decent job of using the W-L as justification for championship challenges, even if it's also led to them booking themselves into some corners.

[tafkaga]

Of course they are important, but for certain archetypes it's more important.

A heroic babyface can't lose 50% of their matches and still have credibility.

A villain can afford to lose more because villainous behavior, not match outcome, is their primary heat generator.

Then there's people who don't fit squarely into those categories. OG Undertaker was a heel but his aura needed to be protected because it was primarily based on his invincibility.

Rey Mysterio could lose more because his ultimate underdog schtick practically depended on it.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

Tough question. Of course in kayfabe they’re everything. Outside of kayfabe you can’t really call them worthless either.

In theory it would be nice if the gate all depended on the story and the in-ring stuff was all superfluous. If nothing else it would cut down on injuries, extend performer’s careers, and get rid of petty arguments about wins/losses. But it doesn’t translate to reality. Instead you just get bad booking and bad shows. You know what I’m saying, bro?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

They’re important overall all but *way* more important for both top faces and monster heels. Their losses should be rare and special.

[sdoyle7798]

Sept 14, 2022 11:00:11 GMT -5 tafkaga said:

Of course they are important, but for certain archetypes it's more important.

A heroic babyface can't lose 50% of their matches and still have credibility.

A villain can afford to lose more because villainous behavior, not match outcome, is their primary heat generator.

Then there's people who don't fit squarely into those categories. OG Undertaker was a heel but his aura needed to be protected because it was primarily based on his invincibility.

Rey Mysterio could lose more because his ultimate underdog schtick practically depended on it.

Foley is another one that used losses to grow his popularity.

Dude probably lost far more than he won over his career.

[chrom]

The reason Jinder's title run was a flop, other than his grotesque physique was that he hadn't won a match in three years when it happened.

We're suppose to believe someone who didn't even had double digit wins is viable as World Champion?

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

They're very important, but for whatever reason things are greater weighed towards someone's losses than their wins. Kofi Kingston for example. His world title run, he goes on a career-best winning streak that sees him string together 21 consecutive wins, but nobody remembers any of that because of the one bad loss where he lost the title. One loss was enough to cancel out credibility accrued from 20+ wins. How's that f***ing fair?

Sept 14, 2022 12:17:50 GMT -5 chrom said:

The reason Jinder's title run was a flop, other than his grotesque physique was that he hadn't won a match in three years when it happened.

We're suppose to believe someone who didn't even had double digit wins is viable as World Champion?

He was 8-29-0 in his return run (remember, he'd been released in 2014 and was rehired in 2016) going into the #1 Contender match that he won.

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

Sept 15, 2022 3:48:46 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

They're very important, but for whatever reason things are greater weighed towards someone's losses than their wins. Kofi Kingston for example. His world title run, he goes on a career-best winning streak that sees him string together 21 consecutive wins, but nobody remembers any of that because of the one bad loss where he lost the title. One loss was enough to cancel out credibility accrued from 20+ wins. How's that f***ing fair?

Sept 14, 2022 12:17:50 GMT -5 chrom said:

The reason Jinder's title run was a flop, other than his grotesque physique was that he hadn't won a match in three years when it happened.

We're suppose to believe someone who didn't even had double digit wins is viable as World Champion?

He was 8-29-0 in his return run (remember, he'd been released in 2014 and was rehired in 2016) going into the #1 Contender match that he won.

It shocks me that he had eight wins. I remember him beating Heath Slater in that swerve they did where it looked like he was going to realign with him then turned on him instead. I also remember him beating Jack Swagger who was a complete afterthought by that point and on his way out and even then it was considered an upset win for Jinder which shows how low he was on the totem pole at that point. Then I recall him forming an alliance with Rusev who needed a partner in his feud with Enzo and Cass and I guess with Jinder being a fellow foreign heel they felt he fit the bill. He got a tag win or two out of that I believe where Rusev would get the pin. Guess he must of got the rest on Superstars.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

It does depend on the situation overall. Because as someone brought up Kingston, the reason why nobody remembers it was because after he loss the title he was put right back where he was before the big win streak. Tag team with the New Day in away the title run came off as a fever dream. Because after he lost the title he never went after the title again or feuded with a top guy. He was just right back to what he did before that push like it never happened. Just like why people barely remember Jinder Mahal as champion because he back down the card and barely seen.

The wins and loss matter but what matters more is the post loss presentation. If you still presented as a big deal and still having feuds with top of the card guys. It won't matter if they lose. Thats what I laugh about these "news" going around talking about why Roman won't lose because they want him to be "this Generation's" Legend. If one loss is what changes that, than you are doing something very wrong. If Roman lost the title and still post lost has high profile matches. Nothing would change. If the biggest draws in history can take an "L" and still remain a big draw. SO can Roman. But there is this narrative that if he losses now he never be a legend. When reality is, he already a legend and feature hall of famer.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Sept 15, 2022 4:13:06 GMT -5 ThankGodForSidJustice said:

Sept 15, 2022 3:48:46 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

They're very important, but for whatever reason things are greater weighed towards someone's losses than their wins. Kofi Kingston for example. His world title run, he goes on a career-best winning streak that sees him string together 21 consecutive wins, but nobody remembers any of that because of the one bad loss where he lost the title. One loss was enough to cancel out credibility accrued from 20+ wins. How's that f***ing fair?

He was 8-29-0 in his return run (remember, he'd been released in 2014 and was rehired in 2016) going into the #1 Contender match that he won.

It shocks me that he had eight wins. I remember him beating Heath Slater in that swerve they did where it looked like he was going to realign with him then turned on him instead. I also remember him beating Jack Swagger who was a complete afterthought by that point and on his way out and even then it was considered an upset win for Jinder which shows how low he was on the totem pole at that point. Then I recall him forming an alliance with Rusev who needed a partner in his feud with Enzo and Cass and I guess with Jinder being a fellow foreign heel they felt he fit the bill. He got a tag win or two out of that I believe where Rusev would get the pin. Guess he must of got the rest on Superstars.

These were his eight wins before he became #1 Contender for the most well-known world championship in professional wrestling:

8/1/16 RAW - def. Heath Slater
9/12/16 RAW - def. Jack Swagger
11/18/16 Superstars - def. Darren Young
1/2/17 RAW - def. Big Cass (handicap match, Rusev got the pin)
1/23/17 RAW - def. New Day, Enzo Amore and Big Cass (Braun Strowman got the pin)
2/16/17 Main Event - def. Sin Cara
3/9/17 Main Event - def. Curtis Axel
3/23/17 Main Event - def. Curtis Axel

[Futureraven: Beelzebruv]

Sept 15, 2022 3:48:46 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

They're very important, but for whatever reason things are greater weighed towards someone's losses than their wins. Kofi Kingston for example. His world title run, he goes on a career-best winning streak that sees him string together 21 consecutive wins, but nobody remembers any of that because of the one bad loss where he lost the title. One loss was enough to cancel out credibility accrued from 20+ wins. How's that f***ing fair?

Sept 14, 2022 12:17:50 GMT -5 chrom said:

The reason Jinder's title run was a flop, other than his grotesque physique was that he hadn't won a match in three years when it happened.

We're suppose to believe someone who didn't even had double digit wins is viable as World Champion?

He was 8-29-0 in his return run (remember, he'd been released in 2014 and was rehired in 2016) going into the #1 Contender match that he won.

With Kofi, it's the manor of the loss and the followup.

Squashed, then not that bothered by it.

Ok, he was an underdog but not have Brock outright flatten him, THAT was what wiped it out, looking like a chump. If it'd led to a story of him demanding his rematch, a feud where he was trying to raise his game to defeat the invincible monster then putting on a heroic performance! Even if he didn't win the title back, coming close and looking like he had the heart of a champion.

But nah, he was same old Kofi, didn't matter didn't seem in any particular rush to even try to be champion again.

Once the fans get behind you, looking like you're a chump and giving up, that'll get rid of your heat pretty quick.

[XIII]

In general not all that important, but realistically they should be considered as a tool to tell whatever story they are trying to tell. The problem with that is that often there’s either no story, a story that the Booker isn’t invested in, or it comes down to ego’s etc.

Every win and loss should advance a characters narrative, but a lot of time it’s just something for them to do to get on tv and won’t matter two weeks from now.

[flowercity]

Sept 14, 2022 12:17:50 GMT -5 chrom said:

The reason Jinder's title run was a flop, other than his grotesque physique was that he hadn't won a match in three years when it happened.

We're suppose to believe someone who didn't even had double digit wins is viable as World Champion?

Jinder winning the title is the exact moment my lifelong interest in WWE began to die. I still watched, but after that, it was a sharp decline. I occasionally tune in if I’m home with nothing else on, but I couldn’t tell you much about the company.

Wins and losses are extremely important. They help build expectation for a fanbase, and when you can break those expectations, it helps create a moment.