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Post by Jindrak Mark on Sept 23, 2022 15:44:05 GMT -5
I was just checking Nitro ratings for a 98 Goldberg/Sting match in another thread and noticed that they were doing great in early 99.
Ratings for the 8 Nitros before Jan 4 1999: 4.6, 4.0, 4.2, 4.2, 4.2, 4.5, 4.3, 4.1
Ratings for the 8 Nitros after Jan 4 1999: 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 4.7, 5.7, 3.9, 4.8, 4.2
I was always under the impression the fingerpoke hurt WCW's business pretty much immediately but the NWO getting back together seemed to actually be a hit with viewers. Superbrawl also had a massive PPV buyrate, even beating Starrcade.
The idea of Goldberg and Flair going for revenge against the once again full powered NWO seemed to have a lot of interest. Obviously they messed it all up by turning Hogan/Nash face, Flair heel and Goldberg never getting his proper revenge but it's kind of crazy to think just how strong they were still doing and with just basic tweaks who knows how longer they could have held out before ratings started plummeting.
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Post by DiBiase is Good on Sept 23, 2022 15:51:31 GMT -5
Is it anything to do with American Football moving away from Monday nights to weekend playoffs around early January?
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Sept 23, 2022 16:00:21 GMT -5
Is it anything to do with American Football moving away from Monday nights to weekend playoffs around early January? Wasn't this one of Hogan's big tricks in WCW? He'd exercise his creative control to take himself off TV, then make his big comeback when the ratings would've increased anyway because legitimate sports were on a break, and take the credit for the ratings bump. |
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Sept 23, 2022 16:03:30 GMT -5
Is it anything to do with American Football moving away from Monday nights to weekend playoffs around early January? That's possibly a factor but it doesn't explain PPV business also being up immediately afterwards. Souled Up 99 was up on WW3 98, Superbrawl 99 was up on Starrcade 98 and was their 3rd biggest PPV ever, Uncensored 99 was up on Halloween Havoc 98 which had a card that looked way more stacked. It seems like after that is when things turned sour which coincides with the nonsensical Hogan/Flair double turn. People were waiting for Goldberg to go through the NWO and eventually get the title back from the leader Hogan then all of a sudden Hogan is a good guy before we've even gotten the payoff??? And Flair, the guy who cut that impassioned promo the week after the fingerpoke blasting the NWO for spitting in the face of WCW and the world title, he is now a heel too? Live crowds actually played along and seemed happy to cheer Hogan and boo Flair but business wise it was a complete disaster. The fingerpoke gets more attention but it seems that Hogan/Flair double turn was the thing which killed their momentum. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 23, 2022 18:39:35 GMT -5
It is pinpointed as a downturn but I never took that as its literal downturn. More like that was one of the last straws
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,656
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 23, 2022 18:41:34 GMT -5
The Fingerpoke of Doom actually was a short term shot in the arm for WCW creatively. While they were doing well business-wise, the 2nd half of 1998 was sort of in a creative rut. That had a lot of people who were over, but there weren’t very many compelling stories being told. TV in the weeks after the Fingerpoke of doom was actually very good and probably the best stuff WCW had done in a year, if not longer. The build to SuperBrawl IX was very good, but then they put over the NWO in every match and beat all these new hot babyfaces. It was depressing. I know after this, my interest in WCW sharply declined. And then they started a frenzy of heel and face turns that made no sense. Reuniting the NWO to feud with Goldberg, Flair, the Horseman, DDP, and Sting and company was a great idea. The execution, after a hot start, was terrible and it put the company in a downward spiral creatively from which they never recovered.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Sept 23, 2022 19:08:05 GMT -5
It is pinpointed as a downturn but I never took that as its literal downturn. More like that was one of the last straws Yeah, it's usually pointed not as a moment that killed business, but as a fateful domino along with the overbooked Starcade 97 finish that pointed to eventual booking problems. I think that's important to keep in mind for wrestling in general. The story structure of wrestling is literally designed to deny the audience their desired outcome for an unspecified period of time. This means that storytelling missteps aren't necessarily seen as such immediately - it's not until they add up to a larger pattern that audiences are actually driven away. Fingerpoke of Doom is a great example of that. It's an exciting plot twist, until it's clear that it's going to go in a circle, not escalate to anything. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 23, 2022 20:07:52 GMT -5
Something I think gets missed in way too many of those discussions is that ratings are not necessarily reflective of this week being good, but last week
Didn't the buyrates start dropping like a stone in April?
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 23, 2022 21:24:49 GMT -5
Man, I just remember actually being hyped for the Fingerpoke...I didn't like the babyface Wolfpac, so getting heel Nash back excited me.
Of course, I was also not even 14 years old yet and hadn't been watching the entire nWo run (only came back to watching weekly in early '98), so I hadn't gotten a chance to be sick of the nWo's run yet.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 23, 2022 21:57:31 GMT -5
The follow up is what killed it, not the actual fingerpoke of Doom. It didn't devalue the title anymore than any other bullshit finish; but you had to have an idea where to go. Instead, by March, you had Hogan and Flair double turning in a weird first blood steel cage match; which killed the idea of Goldberg running though the nWo to get his title back.
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Post by thegame415 on Sept 27, 2022 8:47:52 GMT -5
WCW in early 1999 was still a legit threat to WWF. WWF just got so much better with entertaining characters and storylines.
I've said this before, but watching Nitro in early 1999 felt like you were watching a wrestling show. Watching WWF in early 1999 felt like you were watching a show about wrestlers. That was the difference maker.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,498
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 27, 2022 9:19:51 GMT -5
The follow up is what killed it, not the actual fingerpoke of Doom. It didn't devalue the title anymore than any other bullshit finish; but you had to have an idea where to go. Instead, by March, you had Hogan and Flair double turning in a weird first blood steel cage match; which killed the idea of Goldberg running though the nWo to get his title back. They also hot potatoed the title in the aftermath from Hogan, to Flair, to DDP, to Sting (literally like, 2 hours) to DDP, To Nash to Savage to Hogan all in the span of 6 months. Granted it was nothing like the great title clusterf*** of 2000, but it put a huge dent in the credibility of the title and showcased that they had absolutely no long term booking ideas |
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,115
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Post by tafkaga on Sept 27, 2022 9:28:29 GMT -5
While I didn't personally enjoy the fingerpoke, this is just another example of WWE alternate history. It was not the worst thing ever. I also never liked babyface Wolfpack, so this was actually an interesting development even if the execution annoyed me.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,498
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 27, 2022 10:18:11 GMT -5
While I didn't personally enjoy the fingerpoke, this is just another example of WWE alternate history. It was not the worst thing ever. I also never liked babyface Wolfpack, so this was actually an interesting development even if the execution annoyed me. Eh, I'm as critical of the WWE's fast and loose revisionist nonsense, but the fingerpoke being known as a huge disaster is by no means exclusive to them. It wasn't a terrible idea on paper, but tit was a big piece of the company's downfall when you factor in execution, the Foley thing, and the aftermath being a smoldering mess |
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Sept 27, 2022 10:21:16 GMT -5
People were willing to see where the fingerpoke went. When it went into a jumbled, nonsensical mess that led to a dominant NWO, like every other "storyline" over the course of the last 2-3 years at that point, I think that's when people started to really tune out in droves.
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Post by James Fabiano on Sept 27, 2022 11:00:15 GMT -5
It's kind of like when Fonzie jumped the shark. It didn't kill Happy Days in the ratings immediately, but creatively it was a point when you knew things wouldn't be the same. Then the rest followed.
(Personally it wasn't the fingerpoke that did it...it was when Russo came in 1999 and basically tried to make WCW into another Attitude WWF).
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 27, 2022 17:52:20 GMT -5
The follow up is what killed it, not the actual fingerpoke of Doom. It didn't devalue the title anymore than any other bullshit finish; but you had to have an idea where to go. Instead, by March, you had Hogan and Flair double turning in a weird first blood steel cage match; which killed the idea of Goldberg running though the nWo to get his title back. They also hot potatoed the title in the aftermath from Hogan, to Flair, to DDP, to Sting (literally like, 2 hours) to DDP, To Nash to Savage to Hogan all in the span of 6 months. Granted it was nothing like the great title clusterf*** of 2000, but it put a huge dent in the credibility of the title and showcased that they had absolutely no long term booking ideas WWF hot potatoed the belt in 1999 too, maybe not to the same extreme, at least early on. It's stuff you can get in when you have a bunch of over acts; while WCW typically did it to try to heat up acts. |
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 17:55:52 GMT -5
Hogan was massively over during this period.
Like... it's kinda forgotten, but the fans basically turned him face.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 27, 2022 17:59:09 GMT -5
The Fingerpoke of Doom was a turning point creatively, but TV ratings were fine.
Granted, WCW's ratings even in 2000 and 2001 were never exactly bad. But ratings were like, the least of reasons why WCW was in such bad shape as a business.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 18:00:36 GMT -5
The Fingerpoke of Doom was a turning point creatively, but TV ratings were fine. Granted, WCW's ratings even in 2000 and 2001 were never exactly bad. But ratings were like, the least of reasons why WCW was in such bad shape as a business. This is true. AEW wishes it had "dying WCW" numbers. And that's a knock on AEW. WCW was still a draw ratings wise. |
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