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Post by koreycaskets on Oct 28, 2022 13:14:30 GMT -5
The old Saturday Nights Main Event had some of the most random matches ever.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Oct 28, 2022 14:06:34 GMT -5
The old Saturday Nights Main Event had some of the most random matches ever. Hogan would defend the belt against Terry Funk and Harley Race on SNME, which made no sense in kayfabe (but was obviously awesome to see) The undercards of PPVs were random as hell most of the time too. Was there a reason for Hacksaw Duggan & the Bossman to skip the Rumble in 1990 and just have a match? Not really but it was a pretty solid brawl that the crowd was super into.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 14:17:28 GMT -5
There are always going to be IMO two directions for storytelling nowadays in wrestling you are either NJPW or Lucha Underground.
To me the trying to hold a middle ground just does not work if you want coherent stories because you can't be trying to mix supernatural elements and then throwing out real world shoot promos etc , which is what the likes of AEW and WWE try to do and it does nothing but clash and create constant inconsistencies.
LU is still IMO the gold standard for overall storytelling in wrestling because of how masterfully they weaved so many characters through each other , how many characters tied to each other all while satiating those individual stories while weaving giant overarching story through all of it and it worked that well because they never compromised the tone of the show..nothing ever felt out of place and it has long been a problem with alot if not most wrestling which ties back to overall storytelling.
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Post by Ecks Ecks Ringout Ecks Ecks on Oct 28, 2022 14:30:38 GMT -5
TK talks bollocks in interviews sometimes, but I think he's spot on in this case. Peak popularity Nitro was 100% as he's describing, and you can make a solid case that it's better than scraping the bottom of the creativity barrel to run a Beaver Cleavage and Marianna angle on the undercard.
Not that AEW's booking is beyond reproach—it's a fair claim that the overloaded roster and ROH acquisition have resulted in the loss of some storytelling nuance, with so many performers to account for—but there's nothing wrong with giving us a variety of interesting matches purely for kayfabe-sports reasons.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 28, 2022 14:43:09 GMT -5
While I liked the Vince Russo approach of "everyone had something to do" for WWF's Attitude Era, it definitely can result in diluting the product.
Granted, I flocked to New Japan almost immediately after falling out with WWE. Even in WWE, I loved stuff like John Cena's weekly open challenge for the US Championship. And one of my favorite post-Attitude Era matches in WWE history was a match on a Raw between Cena and HBK that had no real complex storyline impetus, titles on the line, or blood feud behind it. Hell, it wasn't even a face vs. heel thing (both were faces at the time). Just two guys who wanted to compete with each other. The only driving storyline behind it was HBK wanting to know if he could beat Cena. Simple, but so effective. They put on a near hour long masterclass in in-ring storytelling, and I loved every minute of it.
Over the last few years, I've grown to appreciate in-ring storytelling more and more over anything else in wrestling. Not that I don't appreciate a fun gimmick or compelling angles and promos, but if they accompany a match that's just a spot fest or going through the motions, what's the point?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 17:19:28 GMT -5
I guess I just don't get what the problem is due to a philosophy I have regarding professional wrestling.
The way I see it is that professional wrestling is an emulation of a real combat sport. You find me an MMA or a boxing card where every single fight has some kind of narrative attached to it beyond "Me want win. Win means money and closer to title shot", I'll wait.
You can say that that's not the kind of wrestling you like, and that's okay, but "everyone must have a story all the time and no matches exist for the sake of existing" is a relatively new thing in the history of pro-wrestling.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Oct 28, 2022 21:42:37 GMT -5
To me, I never minded having matches just to have matches.
Even a match on Nitro between say Norman Smiley vs Chris Adams or something. There isn’t a story or a reason it’s happening but you would imagine, in kayfabe, that if Norman or Chris wins, it would theoretically put them one step closer to some sort of championship match. Just like boxing or MMA fights on the undercard. Those fights are not just booked for shits and giggles, those fights matter on their careers. Taking them one step closer and further from a title shot in the future.
On the flip side of this, for years, wrestling bookers and writers don’t book matches like it’s a real sport. And fans are not trained to think it’s a real sport anymore. Plus wrestlers get title shots seemingly at random unless they are involved in a storyline with the champion. That’s why I wished the Rankings system was used better.
But on the other hand of that, even Boxing and MMA sometimes ignore the rankings in order to book the match that will make the most money. So, really the rankings in real and fake combat sports might be just bullshit.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 29, 2022 16:32:14 GMT -5
To me, I never minded having matches just to have matches. Even a match on Nitro between say Norman Smiley vs Chris Adams or something. There isn’t a story or a reason it’s happening but you would imagine, in kayfabe, that if Norman or Chris wins, it would theoretically put them one step closer to some sort of championship match. Just like boxing or MMA fights on the undercard. Those fights are not just booked for shits and giggles, those fights matter on their careers. Taking them one step closer and further from a title shot in the future. On the flip side of this, for years, wrestling bookers and writers don’t book matches like it’s a real sport. And fans are not trained to think it’s a real sport anymore. Plus wrestlers get title shots seemingly at random unless they are involved in a storyline with the champion. That’s why I wished the Rankings system was used better. But on the other hand of that, even Boxing and MMA sometimes ignore the rankings in order to book the match that will make the most money. So, really the rankings in real and fake combat sports might be just bullshit. Cody once said that he was inspired by College Football for AEW's ranking system. And I think that's even more bullshit than boxing or MMA lmao.
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sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,566
Member is Online
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Post by sfvega on Oct 29, 2022 20:40:58 GMT -5
To me, I never minded having matches just to have matches. Even a match on Nitro between say Norman Smiley vs Chris Adams or something. There isn’t a story or a reason it’s happening but you would imagine, in kayfabe, that if Norman or Chris wins, it would theoretically put them one step closer to some sort of championship match. Just like boxing or MMA fights on the undercard. Those fights are not just booked for shits and giggles, those fights matter on their careers. Taking them one step closer and further from a title shot in the future. On the flip side of this, for years, wrestling bookers and writers don’t book matches like it’s a real sport. And fans are not trained to think it’s a real sport anymore. Plus wrestlers get title shots seemingly at random unless they are involved in a storyline with the champion. That’s why I wished the Rankings system was used better. But on the other hand of that, even Boxing and MMA sometimes ignore the rankings in order to book the match that will make the most money. So, really the rankings in real and fake combat sports might be just bullshit. I agree with this. I also feel like the more storylines you do, the more repetitive those storylines become. I think having a bunch of random matches most Dynamites/Rampages takes some pressure off of the creativity needed for actual meaningful overarching feuds. As long as you have 4-5 segments or matches that actually tie something together, the rest of it can just be wrestling and that's fine with me. It also allows you open-endedness (not a word) to start a feud with two guys who the crowd reacts positively to working together or who have chemistry. Because some of the most focused booking has fallen flat and some of the most random shit has caught fire. Give the crowd a taste of something and if they like it, give them more.
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Blade
Don Corleone
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Post by Blade on Nov 1, 2022 16:02:40 GMT -5
Nah. I didn't watch Nitro and have no nostalgia for it, and I don't really care if Khan's accurate in saying it's like Nitro or not.
What I do care about is "did you make me want to see the match?"
Wrestling is not a real sport. In a real sport there are upsets even at long odds so there is built in intrigue. I did not care about Mox vs. Penta (and skipped watching it) because it had no intrigue whatsoever and the only possibility of something interesting happening was post match shenanigans. As was in fact the case.
I am far more interested in Avalon/Cutler 4 on the strength of a single hype clip than I am in Mox/Moriarty, because there is an utter failure in convincing me there will be anything interesting to see in the latter. I know Lee Moriarty is good and the match may well be good, but AEW is not short on good matches.
Matches without a story can tell a story themselves and get people more over or make future matches more interesting, but this is not true of the vast majority of AEW random filler foregone conclusion matches.
There is literally no reason not to have interesting matches or feuds going on with undercarders beyond booker myopia and laziness. The Assclaimed/Gunns storyline was among the best things AEW did all year and got the Acclaimed white hot despite the fact neither team had beaten anybody of consequence in the entire time I've watched the show. Goddamn LEARN something from that, Tony.
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Post by ANuclearError on Nov 1, 2022 16:45:00 GMT -5
I don't think rankings are the way to go, but I think there needs to be a kayfabe way to work your way up the card. Something simple like "5 wins in a row gets you a TNT/TBS/Tag title match", as you can make the 4th/5th match of the streak mean something. You can then build mini-feuds based on that, like a heel cheats to screw a face out of their 5th win in a row.
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