Modern wrestling psychology that actually makes MORE sense

[Deleted]

... than old school 'rasslin psychology. 

Submissions make a little bit more sense these days, what with tapping out being a thing now.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Having War Games competitors in a shark cage makes more sense than having the teams just out on the floor, and co-existing just feet apart from each other. Especially when everyone is huddled around when the coin toss is being done.

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

Once you understand how submissions work, modern wrestling does a much better job integrating them with the correct psychology behind it.

[XIII]

Dec 18, 2022 0:31:01 GMT -5 "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik said:

Once you understand how submissions work, modern wrestling does a much better job integrating them with the correct psychology behind it.

Which is pretty funny considering that that’s what pro wrestling was based on all those years ago. People talk about the new guys not knowing how to work but dudes from back in the day are the ones that got away from wrestling’s roots.  🤷🏻‍♂️

[67 more]

Calling for the bell when the arm drops once rather than the three arm drops.

[Bo Rida]

I know that the common old timer advice to slow down is sensible and some matches do need more time to let things breathe.

However as a general rule:
Getting up too quickly > laying down longer than a 10 count.

The amount of times HHH should have been counted out in his later years is ridiculous.

(There's exceptions of course, like getting straight up after a powerbomb off a ladder off a stage through a flaming table covered in barbed wire)

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Dec 18, 2022 14:34:59 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

I know that the common old timer advice to slow down is sensible and some matches do need more time to let things breathe.

However as a general rule:
Getting up too quickly > laying down longer than a 10 count.

The amount of times HHH should have been counted out in his later years is ridiculous.

(There's exceptions of course, like getting straight up after a powerbomb off a ladder off a stage through a flaming table covered in barbed wire)

Yeah, the amount of lying down in some matches just looks really goofy. I got around to the Angle/HBK Mania match about a year ago, and I just couldn't take some parts seriously because of the knockouts and slow rises.

I wonder how much that shift reflects a cultural change where MMA supplanted boxing as the legit combat sport that the audience expected to see reflected in wrestling.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Any psychology makes sense, as long as it's internally consistent.

[Glitch]

Wrestlers showing up to help out a wrestler(that they may not be aligned with) that's getting like a four on one beat down. It would make sense that wrestlers backstage wouldn't just sit idly by while other wrestlers form a group and give someone a beatdown. Even more so wrestlers who form temporary alliances when they see that they are outnumbered.

[sportatorium]

I agree that the way submissions are used now is the best example of this. As an extension of that, the way smaller wrestlers can be presented as more credible challengers to bigger opponents is handled much better. Women’s wrestling as a whole (Rhea Ripley beating Tozawa in a sprint) is handled much more sensibly.

[tafkaga]

Dec 18, 2022 13:45:35 GMT -5 67 more said:

Calling for the bell when the arm drops once rather than the three arm drops.

Hogan would have lost every single match if this were a thing in his day.

[HMARK Center]

I'll go with something that's not 100% followed, but that I just have far less of a problem with than some old timers do: what moves lead to pins.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the appeal of having "one-shot kill" finishers; I also get the practical reason why some older wrestlers don't like excessive kickouts and high spots, there's a sense of "work smarter, not harder". All fair, all worth discussing and debating.

However, for all the talk that too many big moves don't get the job done, y'know what? These guys and gals are legitimately taking spots like superplexes, and they're not knocked out from them, and that's ok. Falling on one's back hurts like hell, but it's not a guarantee that a person it actually out for three seconds, and if someone's driven by a need to win you can imagine being all "Oh God, everything hurts, but I have to keep going."

Maybe this is my mind creating psychology where there is none sometimes, but I feel like there's more of a feeling today that pins aren't just from a move that "knocks out" the opponent, there's a greater component of a wrestler just being too tired to muster the energy to throw a shoulder up anymore. And it makes sense that wrestlers who are closer to the main event, who likely have more experience against higher level competition and in tougher, higher stake matches, would build up a capacity to kickout and survive tough moves. Even beyond that, I can buy the idea that as time goes on and athletic training and health improves that wrestlers would be capable of kicking out of moves that might've used to be match enders.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

It's happening more often(but not exclusively) in Japan but, I like matches where random submissions result in taps. Makes sense considering we've seen what submissions do in real life.


No, you won't just muscle out of a choke after staying in it for minutes on end. If someone traps you in one, you're either tapping or going out. Those are your only choices.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 21, 2022 22:51:31 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

It's happening more often(but not exclusively) in Japan but, I like matches where random submissions result in taps. Makes sense considering we've seen what submissions do in real life.


No, you won't just muscle out of a choke after staying in it for minutes on end. If someone traps you in one, you're either tapping or going out. Those are your only choices.

I get some of the struggle with making that work in pro wrestling: given how intrinsically theatrical pro wrestling is, there's drama to be milked out of someone struggling and screaming and desperately trying not to submit once they're locked in a hold.

That said, yeah, I think there's at least some submissions that really need to be "if this is locked in right, game over", if just because there's such greater awareness around how shoot submissions work nowadays. In that case, there should be some effort put into having the dramatic struggle being one wrestler doing everything in their power to escape or keep the other wrestler from cinching in their finisher tightly, or if you do want them to get stuck in the hold but not end the match then make sure it's a bit closer to the ropes so we don't get a whole prolonged "this guy's in an actual, fully applied cross-arm breaker yet spends a minute to get it broken up" sequence.

Again, doesn't need to apply to every submission, but a few like blood chokes, juji gatames, and certain leg locks should be presented that way, to me at least.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Dec 21, 2022 3:51:15 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

Any psychology makes sense, as long as it's internally consistent.

This. What works in a more showmanship style promotion like WWE doesn’t necessarily work in a more sports based presentation like AEW or NJPW.

An example that came up in this thread, the dropping the arm 3 times works in WWE but the ending the match when the arm drops once like in MMA works in AEW.

[67 more]

Dec 24, 2022 10:44:27 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Dec 21, 2022 22:51:31 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

It's happening more often(but not exclusively) in Japan but, I like matches where random submissions result in taps. Makes sense considering we've seen what submissions do in real life.


No, you won't just muscle out of a choke after staying in it for minutes on end. If someone traps you in one, you're either tapping or going out. Those are your only choices.

I get some of the struggle with making that work in pro wrestling: given how intrinsically theatrical pro wrestling is, there's drama to be milked out of someone struggling and screaming and desperately trying not to submit once they're locked in a hold.

That said, yeah, I think there's at least some submissions that really need to be "if this is locked in right, game over", if just because there's such greater awareness around how shoot submissions work nowadays. In that case, there should be some effort put into having the dramatic struggle being one wrestler doing everything in their power to escape or keep the other wrestler from cinching in their finisher tightly, or if you do want them to get stuck in the hold but not end the match then make sure it's a bit closer to the ropes so we don't get a whole prolonged "this guy's in an actual, fully applied cross-arm breaker yet spends a minute to get it broken up" sequence.

Again, doesn't need to apply to every submission, but a few like blood chokes, juji gatames, and certain leg locks should be presented that way, to me at least.

It's probably not the first example people would go to, but Asuka/Mickie from NXT had a great example of how to treat submissions more than just babyface doesn't tap grrrr. Asuka gets the chickenwing locked in, Mickie tries two separate counters, neither counter works and Mickie has to tap as she ends up stuck in the centre. Mickie still looks valiant because she tried TWO possible counters before having to tap, Asuka is shown to be a superior submission wrestler for being able to hang on to the hold and both women come out looking great.

EDIT: Looked it up again because I haven't watched it in six years. Mickie goes for the DDT, Asuka grabs a wristlock out of that, rolls Mickie over then grabs the Asuka Lock. Mickie instinctively rolls them both towards the ropes, Asuka is able to get her body in the way while not letting go of the hold. Mickie then tries a snapmare with her free arm, but Asuka holds on, rolling Mickie through with her. Mickie from there tries the Bret Hart WM8 counter to try and make Asuka pin herself, but at two Asuka turns her shoulder and is able to get Mickie hooked in a sort of camel clutch position, Mickie realises she's completely stuck now and has to tap.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 24, 2022 15:10:59 GMT -5 67 more said:

Dec 24, 2022 10:44:27 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

I get some of the struggle with making that work in pro wrestling: given how intrinsically theatrical pro wrestling is, there's drama to be milked out of someone struggling and screaming and desperately trying not to submit once they're locked in a hold.

That said, yeah, I think there's at least some submissions that really need to be "if this is locked in right, game over", if just because there's such greater awareness around how shoot submissions work nowadays. In that case, there should be some effort put into having the dramatic struggle being one wrestler doing everything in their power to escape or keep the other wrestler from cinching in their finisher tightly, or if you do want them to get stuck in the hold but not end the match then make sure it's a bit closer to the ropes so we don't get a whole prolonged "this guy's in an actual, fully applied cross-arm breaker yet spends a minute to get it broken up" sequence.

Again, doesn't need to apply to every submission, but a few like blood chokes, juji gatames, and certain leg locks should be presented that way, to me at least.

It's probably not the first example people would go to, but Asuka/Mickie from NXT had a great example of how to treat submissions more than just babyface doesn't tap grrrr. Asuka gets the chickenwing locked in, Mickie tries two separate counters, neither counter works and Mickie has to tap as she ends up stuck in the centre. Mickie still looks valiant because she tried TWO possible counters before having to tap, Asuka is shown to be a superior submission wrestler for being able to hang on to the hold and both women come out looking great.

EDIT: Looked it up again because I haven't watched it in six years. Mickie goes for the DDT, Asuka grabs a wristlock out of that, rolls Mickie over then grabs the Asuka Lock. Mickie instinctively rolls them both towards the ropes, Asuka is able to get her body in the way while not letting go of the hold. Mickie then tries a snapmare with her free arm, but Asuka holds on, rolling Mickie through with her. Mickie from there tries the Bret Hart WM8 counter to try and make Asuka pin herself, but at two Asuka turns her shoulder and is able to get Mickie hooked in a sort of camel clutch position, Mickie realises she's completely stuck now and has to tap.

It's also a good way to distinguish between challengers who are veterans and those who are greenhorns; the vets will know tricks and tactics to avoid a death hold getting put on fully and will try to use them to escape, while a younger wrestler is more susceptible to getting caught straight-out, something they can then learn from in kayfabe and use the next time they face the person that beat them.

Basically, match layouts and finishes should tell us a lot about the characters and the kayfabe standing of the wrestlers we're watching, real eye-opening and original take right there, I realize.

[MrElijah]

Dec 21, 2022 22:51:31 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

It's happening more often(but not exclusively) in Japan but, I like matches where random submissions result in taps. Makes sense considering we've seen what submissions do in real life.


No, you won't just muscle out of a choke after staying in it for minutes on end. If someone traps you in one, you're either tapping or going out. Those are your only choices.

I remember when in the original NXT, Bryan vs. Batista. Short match but Batista sold the shit out of the LaBell Lock without Bryan fully getting it locked in. He started scrambling to the ropes for a break and that helped put over the danger of the move.

[XIII]

Dec 21, 2022 22:51:31 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

It's happening more often(but not exclusively) in Japan but, I like matches where random submissions result in taps. Makes sense considering we've seen what submissions do in real life.


No, you won't just muscle out of a choke after staying in it for minutes on end. If someone traps you in one, you're either tapping or going out. Those are your only choices.

I think that it would work if the wrestlers actually understood how the chokes and locks are actually supposed to be applied and the announcers also understand as well. That way everyone involved could know whether to lock it on kind of janky and the announcers could put over how it’s not applied correctly and that’s why it’s not working. It happens sometimes when you have a guy like Taz with legit Judo experience, but it’s a rarity. Wrestlers should always be fighting the choke as well, not just getting put in a RNC and laying there but fight the arms/hit the ropes immediately. 

It’s super annoying when someone puts on the “pre-triangle” position and everyone sells it as if the triangle is locked on.