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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2022 15:50:54 GMT -5
So the Grapsody 90 minute interview with Tony Khan is up: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajnC-Sz2TqMI apologize that I don't have a time stamp for this part, but I'm actually really glad Khan addressed the whole "this match is so RANDOM, why is it even happening" criticism being probably the peak of bad faith critique. On this front he made a reasonable example: some people were on his case over the Darius Martin vs. Moxley match last week being "pointless" or "having no build", but hey, lo and behold, it turned out that the match was partially used to build to Top Flight winning the battle royale on Rampage and now we've got a Mox/Claudio vs. Top Flight match on Dynamite this week. Even if it doesn't really go anywhere far beyond that, it also at least set up "this is where Martin is relative to Moxley in the kayfabe pecking order", which could end up leading to other stories or character developments down the line. What blows my mind about this whole thing, though, is reading entire conversations between fans online who seem to be acting like matches without build inherently "don't tell stories", or that matches that are "five star matches" somehow don't tell stories, because moves and exciting sequences mean there's no character work or something? I have to know: where in the blue hell is this concept coming from and why are there real life wrestling fans dead ass acting like this is a thing?Pro wrestling isn't a pure sport, nor pure theater; the crux of its appeal is that you watch this thing you know is fake, but stories unfold as the sport is simulated. Promos and angles are fine and sometimes great (promos are elevating Starks in a big way of late), but pro wrestling storytelling is mainly physical, so you have to actually watch how a match unfolds to get what it's trying to say. A ton of people have Orange Cassidy vs. Will Ospreay high up on their matches of the year list for 2022, a match where you had one wrestler who's beyond gifted and uses his insane abilities to flex on his opponents (Ospreay) taking the other (Cassidy) lightly because he viewed him as a joke that he could easily beat...only he learns during the match that the comedy wrestler can keep up with (and nearly beat) him. That was the story. There were some short promos indicating that direction, but the match itself allowed it all to unfold in real time. That's the whole @#$%ing point. Seriously, I just saw people actually arguing "I don't care how well Bryan Danielson can chain wrestle, I need a story hook!", when it's like, dude, Bryan Danielson is fully aware you know it's all fake, he's taking the match to the mat because his mat wrestling is establishing that his opponent can't keep up with him when he's able to wrestle his style of match...or maybe it's to show that his opponent CAN keep up with him, which forces him to alter his strategy! That's the whole @#$%ing point!If every match we see needed an angle beforehand where two wrestlers fight over a shampoo commercial, it'd be utterly excruciating (points to Edge and Booker T for actually making that work in real life, but they're both legends for a reason). I'm feeling this is either a case of people just making up excuses for not liking certain wrestling (from any promotion, not just AEW) that make it sound like they've never watched pro wrestling before, or that there are people who miss that a huge point of pro wrestling is watching how things unfold during a match. Like, I'm going into Wrestle Kingdom next week figuring there's a very, very high chance that Okada is beating Jay White (though he might not!); the drama will thus be in how he does so and what that might mean for new storyline or character paths, moving forward. I don't need Jay White attacking Okada's family or Okada jumping Jay White backstage in the weeks before the match, I want to see how what goes on in the match shapes these two guys once Wrestle Kingdom's over. ...sorry, rant/vent over, I swear. ...for the next few minutes, at least, I promise.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 27, 2022 16:46:12 GMT -5
It's absolutely baffling to me that fans don't get into matches because there's no clear cut story. Jericho vs Andretti proved beyond a shadow of a doubt you don't need a pre-established story before hand to make an incredible moment
Alot of "random" matches mean something later, or are immediately followed up by storylines that are going on right now, whether it's a squash or a clinic. Sometimes you just need something on a card that makes a strong match to level it out, but it doesn't mean it's ever "random" and doesn't matter
There are some people who can't get into matches because they think the result is too predictable, but personally, I like the journey a match can and will take me on, and some AEW wrestlers really know how to tell a journey when they have a match, for as much as some people say it's just "Spots", it's not, and it rarely feels that way, Young Bucks do everything with a purpose for example, since they're an example so many people love to lean on. If you ever watch their matches you can tell they want to tell an entire story when they do them, and the Best of Seven is really proving just how well they can do it imo.
So I guess wrestling opinions can be subjective, but yeah I agree, this one I don't get, and it really feels like just a blanket statement to say to hate the product, because at this point WWE wrestling and AEW wrestling quality and pace can be very similar, and there really isn't much off limits to the other.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 27, 2022 17:51:06 GMT -5
For TV the question should be what purpose does a match serve. Sometimes it's just to pop a live crowd or help establish things in the audience's mind and that's fine. Sometimes it won't be clear what the purpose was until later.
It's not really that different to a real sports league, there's often an interesting story that can be spun out of events but there'll always be some matches that just occur because they're scheduled. Not everything can be the world cup final.
Lack of story is a more legit complaint is if it's something thrown on ppv with no build, especially in aew when they only have 4 or 5 a year. People are going want to be emotionally invested to financially invest.
There's also the wider trend of those that only seem to follow things to pick it it apart and will shoehorn in their pre-decided opinions regardless of what actually happens or if they even watched it. Seems to stem from those making angry podcasts and YouTube videos but at least that's part of their grift, it's weirder from normal "fans".
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Dec 27, 2022 18:01:11 GMT -5
For TV the question should be what purpose does a match serve. Sometimes it's just to pop a live crowd or help establish things in the audience's mind and that's fine. Sometimes it won't be clear what the purpose was until later. It's not really that different to a real sports league, there's often an interesting story that can be spun out of events but there'll always be some matches that just occur because they're scheduled. Not everything can be the world cup final. Lack of story is a more legit complaint is if it's something thrown on ppv with no build, especially in aew when they only have 4 or 5 a year. People are going want to be emotionally invested to financially invest. There's the wider trend of those that only seem to follow things to pick it it apart and will shoehorn in their pre-decided opinions regardless of what actually happens or if they even watched it. Seems to stem from those making angry podcasts and YouTube videos but at least that's part of their grift, it's weirder from normal "fans". Yeah, all of this, basically. There's a difference between purpose and story and as long as a TV match has a purpose, that's fine, IMO. I don't know why AEW gets so much criticism for not always having a story in their matches when TV wrestling has never been exclusively for stories. It used to be almost exclusively squash matches, after all.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 27, 2022 18:01:47 GMT -5
An ideal match has both story and quality actual wrestling stuff. You can have a good match for the sake of it and you can have a good story without an amazing match behind it, but they don't need to exist as mutually exclusive things. Hate it when people act like everyone is a bland wrestleguy if they do more than six moves or aren't seven feet tall and that therefore they're excluded from being able to tell stories or have personalities. And sometimes the match is the story and if someone doesn't understand wrestling enough to grasp that then that's their own issue. People who just say "Yeah but this isn't the story I want so it's not actually a story, none of this is stories, nobody has a character" are just being intellectually dishonest.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2022 18:14:20 GMT -5
An ideal match has both story and quality actual wrestling stuff. You can have a good match for the sake of it and you can have a good story without an amazing match behind it, but they don't need to exist as mutually exclusive things. Hate it when people act like everyone is a bland wrestleguy if they do more than six moves or aren't seven feet tall and that therefore they're excluded from being able to tell stories or have personalities. And sometimes the match is the story and if someone doesn't understand wrestling enough to grasp that then that's their own issue. People who just say "Yeah but this isn't the story I want so it's not actually a story, none of this is stories, nobody has a character" are just being intellectually dishonest. It even popped into my head when I was just watching the most recent episode of OSW Review; they asked V1 how the AEW trios division has been and he basically said "it's exciting matches, but no storytelling". Now granted, that was recorded before Full Gear and the story between Death Triangle and the Elite, and they used editing during the episode to basically say "whoops, guess we whiffed on that one", but like, even if Death Triangle's first couple of title defenses did feel like spotfests or whatever, those matches still served the purpose of getting over PAC and the Lucha Bros as guys with the capacity to be dominant champions, which thus added intrigue to the match with the Elite that everyone and their mother figured Kenny and the Bucks would win outright. Instead, whoops! They integrated PAC acting more heelish of late, they played off Death Triangle's previous wins to make their victory at Full Gear not feel like a fluke, but they're also telling a story with Fenix being conflicted about his partners' use of weapons! And yeah, I do think there's a component of some folks seeing a story they simply don't like or connect with and conflating it with there being no story. Like, it's fine to say "I wish they'd kept Hookhausen going", but it's not a lack of storytelling that led to them not being around anymore: they told a story with a beginning (Danhausen getting pushed around by Varsity Athletes), middle (Hookhausen uniting), and end (the faces defeating the heels), so that was that. It's fine to say "I want more of that and think it's a bad choice to end it early", it's borderline dishonest to say "they didn't tell a story" or something like that. I might just be fearing that there's a habit out there of some people watching wrestling and just not really paying any attention to the matches. I get it, there are times I zone out during a show, it happens to everyone, but we've still got (non-podcast hosting) people 'round the intertubes saying the Young Bucks don't do storytelling or ring psychology, and people still saying that come across like they're just not actually watching and tune out the second they see a flip.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 27, 2022 19:53:43 GMT -5
Some people think that without a promo, vignette, or backstage segment setting up a match, that it has no story. And that completely ignores in-ring storytelling.
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Post by eJm on Dec 27, 2022 20:03:35 GMT -5
Some people think that without a promo, vignette, or backstage segment setting up a match, that it has no story. And that completely ignores in-ring storytelling. It also ignores the fact that you’re buying into a kayfabe where people are competing with one another to be the best or to gain a significant advantage because that’s literally the concept of every wrestling company going. Hell, Lucha Underground, a show more TV show than actual wrestling show, ran on the conceit of people winning matches to gain power or wins or title belts rather than “Let’s fight because you looked at me funny with a camera we can’t see in front of us filming it” and the owner being like “I want to make money from this” because he’s a pro wrestling Booker and not a film director.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2022 20:11:26 GMT -5
Some people think that without a promo, vignette, or backstage segment setting up a match, that it has no story. And that completely ignores in-ring storytelling. It also ignores the fact that you’re buying into a kayfabe where people are competing with one another to be the best or to gain a significant advantage because that’s literally the concept of every wrestling company going. Hell, Lucha Underground, a show more TV show than actual wrestling show, ran on the conceit of people winning matches to gain power or wins or title belts rather than “Let’s fight because you looked at me funny with a camera we can’t see in front of us filming it” and the owner being like “I want to make money from this” because he’s a pro wrestling Booker and not a film director. It's why Dario Cueto is the best on-air authority that's not in the Jack Tunney "intentionally boring professional" mould; his entire motivation in front of the live crowds was "I love money and violence, and having you two fight will give me both." Like, super corrupt authority figures ala late 90s Bischoff and Vince worked since they hadn't really been done before, but otherwise? Nah, if you're not going to do a straight-laced authority figure who tries to call things down the middle, then go Dario with it where there's at least a consistent motivation.
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Post by eJm on Dec 27, 2022 20:15:54 GMT -5
It also ignores the fact that you’re buying into a kayfabe where people are competing with one another to be the best or to gain a significant advantage because that’s literally the concept of every wrestling company going. Hell, Lucha Underground, a show more TV show than actual wrestling show, ran on the conceit of people winning matches to gain power or wins or title belts rather than “Let’s fight because you looked at me funny with a camera we can’t see in front of us filming it” and the owner being like “I want to make money from this” because he’s a pro wrestling Booker and not a film director. It's why Dario Cueto is the best on-air authority that's not in the Jack Tunney "intentionally boring professional" mould; his entire motivation in front of the live crowds was "I love money and violence, and having you two fight will give me both." Like, super corrupt authority figures ala late 90s Bischoff and Vince worked since they hadn't really been done before, but otherwise? Nah, if you're not going to do a straight-laced authority figure who tries to call things down the middle, then go Dario with it where there's at least a consistent motivation. It’s pretty much the idea of how in soaps, you have someone own the local pub where everyone goes and you know of who that person is, but you’re not privy to the events. You’re just there for the company and beer. We as the audience are aware of what goes on with the owner and their family, whoever that might be, but in universe? They just go there to drink, hear some gossip and go on with their lives if you’re not one of the other main characters. It was the same principle with Dario. Those fans had no idea, in story, he was blackmailing people and allowing crime and murder but the audience watching do which adds to the enjoyment. It’s honestly the closest wrestling has come to “male soap opera” people claim it has.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2022 20:29:22 GMT -5
I think that kind of gets at part of the issue here: the whole "male soap opera" thing? I think people sometimes overplay how much that's actually defined what pro wrestling is over the years. Like, late 90s mainstream pro wrestling through the early 00s? Sure, there was often a week to week "oh, now so and so has betrayed the other guys and it's leading to this dramatic confrontation" and other soap style storytelling. Otherwise, it's usually been much more "simulated sport, but with some absurd personalities and gimmicks mixed in", since it felt like the overt soap storytelling had diminishing returns after a few years.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 27, 2022 22:07:29 GMT -5
I've always taken issue with the "soap opera for men" thing. Because I watch real soap operas and Victor Newman is a harder motherf***er than any wrestler except like, Minoru Suzuki.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 27, 2022 23:24:45 GMT -5
So the Grapsody 90 minute interview with Tony Khan is up: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajnC-Sz2TqMI apologize that I don't have a time stamp for this part, but I'm actually really glad Khan addressed the whole "this match is so RANDOM, why is it even happening" criticism being probably the peak of bad faith critique. On this front he made a reasonable example: some people were on his case over the Darius Martin vs. Moxley match last week being "pointless" or "having no build", but hey, lo and behold, it turned out that the match was partially used to build to Top Flight winning the battle royale on Rampage and now we've got a Mox/Claudio vs. Top Flight match on Dynamite this week. Even if it doesn't really go anywhere far beyond that, it also at least set up "this is where Martin is relative to Moxley in the kayfabe pecking order", which could end up leading to other stories or character developments down the line. Speaking personally, I absolutely think there are valid reasons to have this reaction about this particular example; A company needs to prove it deserves the benefit of the audience's doubt when a seemingly meaningless match is actually being used to set something up down the line. People can obviously disagree about whether a given company at a given time warrants that sort of trust, but I think it was perfectly reasonable, given everything one knows about AEW's booking, to just assume that particular match would end up meaning nothing. The more this happens, the less justified the audience will be in reacting cynically. (As an aside I strongly disagree with the last part of this quoted part there, because The Kayfabe Pecking Order is a boring, empty, bad story to be telling. Good stories need character and motivation. You absolutely can have this in a "random" match... that's just what people call psychology. And you can easily NOT have it in a thing where a segment sets up a match. Doesn't matter where it happens, you just need to have thought about it. "Mox is better than Martin" doesn't count as thinking about it.) I just reaaallllyyyyy notice TK finding a whole lot of reasons to justify not booking more than the minimal amount he's already booking. Yes, absolutely, AEW needs more, better, consistent storytelling. In my opinion, that's been a huge problem... individual programs (seemingly largely booked by veteran roster members like Jericho, Mox, and Danielson who run their own segments and usually use them to get younger people over) can be great, but none of it interlocks and very little of it gets satisfyingly paid off. Even if someone thinks AEW is telling compelling stories... jeez, think of how much MORE compelling it'd be with some goddamn structure and organization and planning. I just can't help raising an eyebrow and wondering if he's focusing on some specific side-complaint he can easily shoot down rather than actually address the bigger problem. And "bad faith" isn't fair, I don't think, because... well, let me put it this way. I think in some ways this false dichotomy isn't something people really BELIEVE so much as it's a reaction to other fans' assertions that match quality is are all that matters (which is ITSELF something these folks probably don't believe and is a reaction to still ANOTHER group of fans).
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 28, 2022 6:41:38 GMT -5
Some fans just want all theater in their wrestling.
To be honest I don’t know if I’d have become a fan of the business if it was all in one specific direction. If all promotions were as hyper-real appearing as RINGS or as cinematic and cartoony as Lucha Underground, I’d get bored fast.
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Post by eJm on Dec 28, 2022 6:55:14 GMT -5
Some fans just want all theater in their wrestling. To be honest I don’t know if I’d have become a fan of the business if it was all in one specific direction. If all promotions were as hyper-real appearing as RINGS or as cinematic and cartoony as Lucha Underground, I’d get bored fast. I can agree with that, yeah. But for me; it becomes weirder when people try and do grand visions of the business without realizing I still need to care about why I want to watch you win or aim for something in your pro wrestling career in a pro wrestling company. Like, even Danhausen, a weird cartoony Imp character, is driven by money which, to me, is a good motivation to get signed by a big wrestling company to try and get more of it. One of the problems I found with the Fiend character eventually was that Bray had the concept down and the look down but…what’s the goal here? Cause chaos? Get revenge for past sins? Win championships? Because the latter sort of goes against the other two but the company didn’t really do that. This is also me advocating for more pro wrestling plays, movies, cartoons etc where you can go a bit further with the concepts you can’t quite do with pro wrestling by itself.
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Post by dynamitekidd on Dec 28, 2022 7:02:46 GMT -5
I've always taken issue with the "soap opera for men" thing. Because I watch real soap operas and Victor Newman is a harder motherf***er than any wrestler except like, Minoru Suzuki. Victor Newman was a bad man!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2022 10:16:01 GMT -5
Some fans just want all theater in their wrestling. To be honest I don’t know if I’d have become a fan of the business if it was all in one specific direction. If all promotions were as hyper-real appearing as RINGS or as cinematic and cartoony as Lucha Underground, I’d get bored fast. I can agree with that, yeah. But for me; it becomes weirder when people try and do grand visions of the business without realizing I still need to care about why I want to watch you win or aim for something in your pro wrestling career in a pro wrestling company. Like, even Danhausen, a weird cartoony Imp character, is driven by money which, to me, is a good motivation to get signed by a big wrestling company to try and get more of it. One of the problems I found with the Fiend character eventually was that Bray had the concept down and the look down but…what’s the goal here? Cause chaos? Get revenge for past sins? Win championships? Because the latter sort of goes against the other two but the company didn’t really do that. This is also me advocating for more pro wrestling plays, movies, cartoons etc where you can go a bit further with the concepts you can’t quite do with pro wrestling by itself.This right here IMO sums it up. Wrestling shows walk an interesting line when it comes to storytelling because they got 3 lanes IMO and I have always said the two most extreme have been NJPW and Lucha Undergroud. On one hand you can go all sports oriented and emphasis more the live aspect which is what alot of wrestling tends to do but it does not lend itself to broad vast storytelling but opens up to a wider set of fans as it is the easiest most non complex way to appeal to them by wowing them with the in ring stuff. Another is going the LU route of just fully embracing being a television show and opening up that preverbial envelope all the way , all types of stories are able to be told , far more than a company that primarly sets it self grounded in realisim and then follows through on trying to appeal to both sides but integrating spoopy aspects and it does nothing but bring up logic and continuity questions and creates this tonal whiplash with the rest of that show. AEW is fine with the in ring storytelling which is more in line with ROH , NJPW but when they try to branch out (things like broken matt or penta oscuro) you see that tonal clash that does not work with the rest of the show and it ends up feeling like a waste.
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Post by eJm on Dec 28, 2022 10:42:38 GMT -5
See, I’d even put LU in the “TV show about a wrestling company” category rather than an actual wrestling show for all the components it brings.
Like, you can get away with what they did because you’re not setting it up as a show where matches and interviews happen.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 28, 2022 11:14:30 GMT -5
NJPW does have more of a sports lean but I’d argue they’re more on the balanced end.
Especially when one compares their Inokiism days, pushing for believability and running MMA guys on top- and then their current period with Okada wrestling a Kings Road-esque style, more gimmicks like the occasional ladder match, Toru Yano in general, nWo style cheating from Bullet Club and KOPW with Shingo telling Phantasmo “I’m Daddy, you baby”.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 28, 2022 12:44:43 GMT -5
The only time I've ever asked why is this happening was a random Pac vs Yuta match before BCC formed mainly because it was announced during the show because kayfabe Page vs Dante Martin ended quick... and then it felt like everything else was short on time (coincidently it's cause Regal went long in a promo)
I always assume that sime of the random matches are more to get prospects they like more time on tv. As unless it's a squash the random matches usually ended up being Yuta, Garcia, one of the Martin's, Sky Blue, or Willow. They may not always have story lines but it gives them time working tv timed matches
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