The "matches or stories, not both" false dichotomy

[daveyt]

I think it's okay to have matches that dont really have a story behind them, regardless if they lead to a story or not. Random matches are fine, but the issue AEW has is letting these matches be a super indy, long, involved ass match haha.

I feel like AEW is indy wrestling taking place on television, which is what the AEW fanbase wants, but it's hard to really garner a larger audience for that.

The best match I can use as an example is Jon Moxley vs. Darius Martin this past week on Dyamite....

The biggest issue I had with this match is why is Jon Moxley, arguably their top and most important guy, having SUCH A HARD TIME beating this tag team specialist guy who has been off tv for a long ass time. Not saying that match has to be a squash match, but damn, you dont need to have tihs random ass match with two guys on polar opposite ends of the card going all out and trying to have a match of the year. Sure, you can have Darius have a few good spots of offense and make them look good, but you really shouldn't bringing Mox down to the level of having to throw everything but the kitchen sink to put away this guy.

That is the problem I have with a lot of in ring stuff with AEW. More or less, most matches seem to be guys trying to have the absolute best match they can. Which is admirable, but its television and the casual fans dont care about that as much. It just kinda devalues their top guy, Moxley.

And yes, it seems to be leading to a feud between the BCC and Top Flight/AR Fox, which is great, they're going to follow up on this. But most of the time, a lot of things arent followed up on. You have a match in the middle of the card where these guys threw everything they could at each other (not to mention how that honestly makes it harder for the main event to do what it needs to do) , but what more could these guys really do to each other in their next match and now one of the guys may off tv for awhile or regulated to dark for awhile.

I think if AEW decided to really tone back on some of the guys going as hard as they do for random ass matches, then honestly, they'd be better off. You can still do those matches, and maybe they dont go anywhere, or maybe they do.

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2022 13:08:39 GMT -5 daveyt said:

I think it's okay to have matches that dont really have a story behind them, regardless if they lead to a story or not. Random matches are fine, but the issue AEW has is letting these matches be a super indy, long, involved ass match haha.

I feel like AEW is indy wrestling taking place on television, which is what the AEW fanbase wants, but it's hard to really garner a larger audience for that.

The best match I can use as an example is Jon Moxley vs. Darius Martin this past week on Dyamite....

The biggest issue I had with this match is why is Jon Moxley, arguably their top and most important guy, having SUCH A HARD TIME beating this tag team specialist guy who has been off tv for a long ass time. Not saying that match has to be a squash match, but damn, you dont need to have tihs random ass match with two guys on polar opposite ends of the card going all out and trying to have a match of the year. Sure, you can have Darius have a few good spots of offense and make them look good, but you really shouldn't bringing Mox down to the level of having to throw everything but the kitchen sink to put away this guy.

That is the problem I have with a lot of in ring stuff with AEW. More or less, most matches seem to be guys trying to have the absolute best match they can. Which is admirable, but its television and the casual fans dont care about that as much. It just kinda devalues their top guy, Moxley.

And yes, it seems to be leading to a feud between the BCC and Top Flight/AR Fox, which is great, they're going to follow up on this. But most of the time, a lot of things arent followed up on. You have a match in the middle of the card where these guys threw everything they could at each other (not to mention how that honestly makes it harder for the main event to do what it needs to do) , but what more could these guys really do to each other in their next match and now one of the guys may off tv for awhile or regulated to dark for awhile.

I think if AEW decided to really tone back on some of the guys going as hard as they do for random ass matches, then honestly, they'd be better off. You can still do those matches, and maybe they dont go anywhere, or maybe they do.

This pairs fair with my comparison about storytelling in certain companies because to me while there is nothing inherently wrong with any way a company chooses to tell stories , companies like AEW almost have an obligation to the audience to have their stars go that hard because that is where all their narrative structure is , in the ring.

A more sports oriented company doesn't have that creative lane where they can use vingettes in abudence to tell deep stories and thus not needing to have their stars constantly going all out.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

Not every match needs a backstory to go with it. However, I think every match, regardless of reasons for happening, should mean something.



Even if the two wrestlers in the ring have zero history together, winning said match should always matter.

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

Lance Storm (I know I know) once described a key difference in the approach WWE and AEW take to storytelling and I thought it was pretty illuminating. And once again, neither approach defines what they do 100% of the time but I think it applies a lot of the time. In WWE, the matches are often more of a backdrop to the story. It usually matters more what happens before or after the match. Rarely does the winner of the match (outside of title matches or stip matches) carry a ton of weight moving forward. In AEW, they also tell stories but those stories are often a lot more reliant on the match itself - both in terms of the story they tell in the ring and who the winner and loser are. So both do storytelling and there is often a reason for matches. But AEW often has it tied directly to the result whereas wins/losses matter less in WWE and it's often a backdrop to the overarching story they're telling (or they're focused on the often used term - momentum).

[daveyt]

Dec 28, 2022 14:20:01 GMT -5 "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik said:

Lance Storm (I know I know) once described a key difference in the approach WWE and AEW take to storytelling and I thought it was pretty illuminating. And once again, neither approach defines what they do 100% of the time but I think it applies a lot of the time. In WWE, the matches are often more of a backdrop to the story. It usually matters more what happens before or after the match. Rarely does the winner of the match (outside of title matches or stip matches) carry a ton of weight moving forward. In AEW, they also tell stories but those stories are often a lot more reliant on the match itself - both in terms of the story they tell in the ring and who the winner and loser are. So both do storytelling and there is often a reason for matches. But AEW often has it tied directly to the result whereas wins/losses matter less in WWE and it's often a backdrop to the overarching story they're telling (or they're focused on the often used term - momentum).

WWE is doing a good job of adding in a good mix of SOAP opera storytelling lately. It may not have been well received by everyone, but IMO they built a good story between The Miz and Dexter Lumis to end in a ladder match which had actual stakes.

Also, in NXT, we just had a match for ownership of a bar between Fallon Henley and Kianna James. 

[The Ichi]

John Cena's WWE career literally began with a random match with no build to it.

[Hypnosis]

Dec 28, 2022 17:01:49 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

John Cena's WWE career literally began with a random match with no build to it.

It began with RUTHLESS...AGGRESSION!

[khali]

The matches without stories complaint is funny considering that the early years of Wrestlemania were all filled with several matches that were just announced with no real feud.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 28, 2022 13:08:39 GMT -5 daveyt said:

I feel like AEW is indy wrestling taking place on television, which is what the AEW fanbase wants, but it's hard to really garner a larger audience for that.

Hasn't AEW grown year over year ratings wise most weeks compared though?

They also drew a million for about 8 straight weeks this year

Idk how large the audience can actually grow, but I'd call that "Large", and that's not even including the million plus live gates they drew for PPVs for the first times this year, that also shows growth, and a pretty large audience.

So yeah I disagree with this point, and I also disagree with Mox having "A hard time" putting Darius Martin away nor did they go out there and try and have a match of the year, he dominated like 85 percent of the match. Darius fought back when he got an opening but inevitably got murderized by the stronger opponent. There was a story told in that match and it was how Darius was horrifyingly outmatched and Moxley just played with his food until he got sick of him, he didn't throw "everything but the kitchen sink" at him at all he chose to hit him with two finishers just to send a statement, and THEN, Darius got a measure of one upsmanship when he eliminated a distracted Mox in the Battle Royale. It was played perfectly imo.

I also should point out, Darius has been out almost a year and a half due to injuries, this is the first time he really had a REAL match in a long time, he earned it for putting in the work to get back, and a little Mini-Feud of Top Flight vs BCC while Mox heats up the feud with Hangman isn't a bad thing, and elevates talent around them by being involved as they are. I know some guys and girls have a DARK run sometimes when a feud ends to reset, but I also don't really see the issue with that, so long as they eventually work their way back up the card and gain momentum back, which is the fun thing about DARK in that sense.

[Ecks Ecks Ringout Ecks Ecks]

As I've gotten older, I've realized this is kind of a recurring pattern with fandoms in general. Looking at slight variations on a particular type of media and trying to sort them into wildly exaggerated, highly inaccurate binary categories, out of some desire to apply objective "good" and "bad" to what's ultimately a matter of personal taste.

I'm sure I did it often enough when I was younger, but nowadays I can admit something like ROH just isn't my cup of tea without feeling the need to argue that it's somehow missing some critical component that makes the wrestling angels weep. Do that kind of thing when you're old enough to know better and you end up like a certain Kentuckian we'd all prefer not to think about these days.