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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jan 1, 2023 20:57:40 GMT -5
It's just unclear why the match had to happen tonight. Use it to build to a match either on Smackdown or the Rumble. Don't rush things. I'm a massive Charlotte fan and defender, but this was my thought as well. The Rumble is RIGHT around the corner, and Charlotte vs. Ronda would be a huge marquee match for it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 1, 2023 20:58:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure at least 1 of Ric's title reigns was won off a dog and another just straight up wasn't even real One of his "wins" was being handed it... only to be stripped of it... only to win it again later in the same night.
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Post by theironyuppie on Jan 1, 2023 21:19:05 GMT -5
I don't even know what can be done to keep Charlotte interesting beyond the first few weeks. I admit I popped for that title change but that was mostly because Ronda's been terrible lately. Once the dust settles and you realize she's walking into Wrestlemania as champion again I tried to think what match would be interesting and I honestly can't think of anything. Charlotte/Ronda? God no they should have a quick rematch and immediately move on. Charlotte/Becky? Don't need to see that again. Charlotte/Rhea? Again, already seen it in 2020 and 2021. Charlotte/Bayley? Sounds boring to me. Charlotte/Bianca? Honestly probably the best choice for her and in kayfabe massive but in reality I don't think it's some mega match. I think Becky/Rhea non-title would be bigger.
We've already seen Charlotte/Bianca three times too. Once in 2020, twice in 2021.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jan 1, 2023 21:32:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure at least 1 of Ric's title reigns was won off a dog and another just straight up wasn't even real Honestly the story of how many world title reigns Ric actually has is a complicated/convoluted mess. I think Ric himself said he thinks 21 is probably a more accurate number, and Meltzer said it could be as high as 24/25 depending on how you look at it. I think WWE's count is specifically NWA, WCW and WWE reigns, probably not counting several times where things like the Fujinami change happened to send a crowd home happy, but somehow also counting his final one where I think Kevin Nash literally handed the belt to him or something
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 1, 2023 22:59:58 GMT -5
Honestly the story of how many world title reigns Ric actually has is a complicated/convoluted mess. I think Ric himself said he thinks 21 is probably a more accurate number, and Meltzer said it could be as high as 24/25 depending on how you look at it. I think WWE's count is specifically NWA, WCW and WWE reigns, probably not counting several times where things like the Fujinami change happened to send a crowd home happy, but somehow also counting his final one where I think Kevin Nash literally handed the belt to him or something Yeah, I got it backwards above... Ric's seventh he beat Jarrett... then Russo stripped Flair of the title... and handed the belt to Jarrett... then Nash beat Jarrett for it and handed the belt back to Flair...then Jarrett beat Flair for it... because what you didn't understand is that Vince Russo is an idiot... edit: Flair himself stated that the 16 number was one he just made up and he wasn't sure how many times he actually won the title. WWE doesn't recognize one of Flair's WCW reigns... he had 8 but WWE only recognizes 7... even then he won the NWA title officially like 10 times "officially" (not counting the times he won and lost it like back to back to back) 9 if you count the first WCW title reign and NWA reign together that's 16... but that then doesn't count his 2 WWF Title Runs...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2023 23:06:26 GMT -5
For counting the title reigns, how many does jerry lawler have in memphis? I remember his number was up there too.
Edit: on charlotte's total, the first few of those were just charlotte and sasha passing the title back and forth every other week, so those weren't exactly "memorable title reigns with tough and dominating defenses". Hulk hogan and bret hart's 4th title win only lasted as long as the post match holding up the title to show that they've won, but they served a purpose as part of the storyline that was happening. Charlotte and sasha were just trading wins back and forth to run up the total
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 21,134
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 2, 2023 0:28:03 GMT -5
It's really not that impressive when you have two "World" titles on the main shows have both been around for 6 years, and they were won by a handful of women, and each reign averages out to like 45 days each. Say what you will about Ric Flair's stupid record, but I think people look at his "champion" stage when he was NWA champion and really use that as the cornerstone of his legacy, and quite frankly his WCW reigns were mostly uneventful, especially toward the end. Despite not being a Goldberg fan, I thought once he won the belt that it was going to be a time where we saw a change in the main event scene, but when guys like Flair, Savage and Hogan we're still winning it, it felt so meaningless and redundant. I think that is my big take away, a lot of these people when they win a title a dozen times or so, it really does feel pointless. The only exception to the rule is when you have a vacuum effect, where you need someone to fill the void without letting the title suffer on someone who isn't deserving, a good case is when they gave it to Cena in 2014, who was the obvious choice to retain credibility. But trading titles just to trade titles? That's just boring. Edge and Randy Orton are examples of guys who won the title a ton of times and literally have nothing to ever prove by winning it again. I'm not a fan of super long title reigns by any stretch, but I prefer it when a champion has a good story from beginning to end, an example being Hogan's first three WWF title reigns. I remember them more for the rich feuds he had rather than the length he had the belt for. I couldn't tell you anything about the eighth time Orton won the title, who he won it from and who he lost it to. So I guess if I had to measure it; Quality > Longevity > Quantity The thing about Ric is that he was a genuine draw and his reigns were accumulated over decades. With Charlotte it feels like WWE cos forcing this GOAT status on her super quick because of who her dad is. One is FAR more organic than the other.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,912
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Post by tirtefaa on Jan 2, 2023 1:05:37 GMT -5
^ Oh absolutely!
That is what I meant by Flair as NWA champion. By the time he was in JCP, he was *the* guy. Not just the guy on one show, but for the entire company, and before that, he was the guy who was defending the title in a ton of territories. Heck, it took Flair over a decade to break 10 reigns. His early WCW reigns were okay too, but like I mentioned before, after 1998 were more than pointless.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,626
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Post by cjh on Jan 2, 2023 1:12:34 GMT -5
Regarding Ric Flair's official 16 world title reigns, they are.....
1. d. Dusty Rhodes (September 1981) 2. d. Harley Race (November 1983) 3. d. Kerry Von Erich (May 1984) 4. d. Dusty Rhodes (July 1986) 5. d. Ron Garvin (November 1987) 6. d. Ricky Steamboat (May 1989) 7. d. Sting (January 1991)
When Flair returned to WCW in 1993, he was billed a 9-time champion, so WCW counted his two WWF reigns from 1992.
10. d. Barry Windham (July 1993) 11. d. Vader (December 1993) 12. d. Randy Savage (December 1995) 13. d. Randy Savage (February 1996) 14. d. Hollywood Hogan (March 1999) 15. d. Jeff Jarrett (May 2000) 16. given title by Kevin Nash (May 2000)
The following title wins are not part of the official count, but they all involved Flair winning a match and not just him being given back the title by the promotion.
d. Tatsumi Fujinami (May 1991) (rematch of March 1991 bout that had disputed finish) d. Ricky Steamboat (May 1994) (match for held up WCW Title and was originally called Flair's 12th reign afterwards, then WCW ignored it and went back to calling him an 11-time champion) d. Sting (June 1994) (unified WCW World Title with Sting's International World Title)
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Post by Chris the Bambikiller on Jan 2, 2023 12:18:37 GMT -5
Charlotte was gone for a few months? Huh, didn't even notice.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2023 12:29:25 GMT -5
It's really not that impressive when you have two "World" titles on the main shows have both been around for 6 years, and they were won by a handful of women, and each reign averages out to like 45 days each. Say what you will about Ric Flair's stupid record, but I think people look at his "champion" stage when he was NWA champion and really use that as the cornerstone of his legacy, and quite frankly his WCW reigns were mostly uneventful, especially toward the end. Despite not being a Goldberg fan, I thought once he won the belt that it was going to be a time where we saw a change in the main event scene, but when guys like Flair, Savage and Hogan we're still winning it, it felt so meaningless and redundant. I think that is my big take away, a lot of these people when they win a title a dozen times or so, it really does feel pointless. The only exception to the rule is when you have a vacuum effect, where you need someone to fill the void without letting the title suffer on someone who isn't deserving, a good case is when they gave it to Cena in 2014, who was the obvious choice to retain credibility. But trading titles just to trade titles? That's just boring. Edge and Randy Orton are examples of guys who won the title a ton of times and literally have nothing to ever prove by winning it again. I'm not a fan of super long title reigns by any stretch, but I prefer it when a champion has a good story from beginning to end, an example being Hogan's first three WWF title reigns. I remember them more for the rich feuds he had rather than the length he had the belt for. I couldn't tell you anything about the eighth time Orton won the title, who he won it from and who he lost it to. So I guess if I had to measure it; Quality > Longevity > Quantity More promotions need to get on board with focusing on "number of successful title defenses" as a more compelling metric. But given that it's a business run by carnies, they'll always swing around the bigger, gaudier, more marketable numbers, like number of reigns and days as champion.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 2, 2023 12:36:28 GMT -5
It's really not that impressive when you have two "World" titles on the main shows have both been around for 6 years, and they were won by a handful of women, and each reign averages out to like 45 days each. Say what you will about Ric Flair's stupid record, but I think people look at his "champion" stage when he was NWA champion and really use that as the cornerstone of his legacy, and quite frankly his WCW reigns were mostly uneventful, especially toward the end. Despite not being a Goldberg fan, I thought once he won the belt that it was going to be a time where we saw a change in the main event scene, but when guys like Flair, Savage and Hogan we're still winning it, it felt so meaningless and redundant. I think that is my big take away, a lot of these people when they win a title a dozen times or so, it really does feel pointless. The only exception to the rule is when you have a vacuum effect, where you need someone to fill the void without letting the title suffer on someone who isn't deserving, a good case is when they gave it to Cena in 2014, who was the obvious choice to retain credibility. But trading titles just to trade titles? That's just boring. Edge and Randy Orton are examples of guys who won the title a ton of times and literally have nothing to ever prove by winning it again. I'm not a fan of super long title reigns by any stretch, but I prefer it when a champion has a good story from beginning to end, an example being Hogan's first three WWF title reigns. I remember them more for the rich feuds he had rather than the length he had the belt for. I couldn't tell you anything about the eighth time Orton won the title, who he won it from and who he lost it to. So I guess if I had to measure it; Quality > Longevity > Quantity More promotions need to get on board with focusing on "number of successful title defenses" as a more compelling metric. But given that it's a business run by carnies, they'll always swing around the bigger, gaudier, more marketable numbers, like number of reigns and days as champion. This was something I brought up with AEW early on, that I really wish they’d list number of title defences along with days as champion
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 21,134
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 2, 2023 12:43:01 GMT -5
What good is it being a “14 time champion” or whatever if most of those reigns are short, not good, or both?
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2023 12:48:20 GMT -5
More promotions need to get on board with focusing on "number of successful title defenses" as a more compelling metric. But given that it's a business run by carnies, they'll always swing around the bigger, gaudier, more marketable numbers, like number of reigns and days as champion. This was something I brought up with AEW early on, that I really wish they’d list number of title defences along with days as champion They do still bring it up sometimes, but yeah, puro tends to focus a bit more on it; I'm guessing lack of weekly TV makes "held for x number of months!" ring a little more hollow when you know there's only a handful of title defenses a year.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 2, 2023 12:54:05 GMT -5
This was something I brought up with AEW early on, that I really wish they’d list number of title defences along with days as champion They do still bring it up sometimes, but yeah, puro tends to focus a bit more on it; I'm guessing lack of weekly TV makes "held for x number of months!" ring a little more hollow when you know there's only a handful of title defenses a year. Yeah, I get why WWE focuses on length not defences because the house show lead to tonnes of title defences and they kind of exist in their own little world but AEW doesn’t have many throw away title matches so they could absolutely track defences. Omega had the title for almost a year and had like 10 defences if that
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Post by mistery on Jan 2, 2023 14:31:59 GMT -5
Did the math out of boredom, and not factoring in her current reign or her reigns in NXT, the average length of a Charlotte singles title run is roughly 68 days.
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Post by grungesmurf on Jan 2, 2023 16:52:10 GMT -5
Did the math out of boredom, and not factoring in her current reign or her reigns in NXT, the average length of a Charlotte singles title run is roughly 68 days. 68 days too long!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 18:08:52 GMT -5
Didn’t they just do this with Becky and Belair?
I’d really hope they stop booking the division around the same four women, Liv felt like a breath of fresh air but she felt like a lame duck even as champion.
Also same with Roman and formally Brock, and now I guess the Usos f*** Jimmy Uso.
I know everyone can’t be champion but the glass ceiling is so thick it makes the rest of the roster look like a bunch of losers.
Had there been two championships Sheamus would have had a freaking run this year. We missed out on soo many bangers!
I don’t see WWE sticking the landing, and nepotism baby Cody Rhodes isn’t it.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,975
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 2, 2023 18:14:04 GMT -5
For counting the title reigns, how many does jerry lawler have in memphis? I remember his number was up there too. Edit: on charlotte's total, the first few of those were just charlotte and sasha passing the title back and forth every other week, so those weren't exactly "memorable title reigns with tough and dominating defenses". Hulk hogan and bret hart's 4th title win only lasted as long as the post match holding up the title to show that they've won, but they served a purpose as part of the storyline that was happening. Charlotte and sasha were just trading wins back and forth to run up the total Oh man, Lawler is like 25 or 35. It’s way up there.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 21,134
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 2, 2023 18:46:53 GMT -5
WWE do have a real problem of reverting back to the same old same old in the end most of the time.
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