Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,084
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 16, 2023 8:54:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember part of Bret's autobiography where he points to moments in '97 and how it felt a bit like the end of '95-early '96 for him - he might've had the title, but he was often being used to get separate storylines over, like Diesel/Taker going into WM 12 or the Hell in a Cell match in '97 or what have you. It was a long issue with Vince's booking of Bret: yes, he'd be at or near the top, but there was always a feeling like Vince was trying to reduce Bret's heat in order to get (insert other wrestler here) over. It worked like aces with Austin, of course, but it created situations like, as you say, Bret feuding with the Patriot or something. With Patriot, world champions have those kinds of feuds all the time, like certainly not every guy Hogan faced realistically had a big chance of beating him. Really, as is so often the case with Bret, his biggest issue would be a Shawn one: I think D-X being heels was undermining the Hart Foundation to an extent. They were not both going to be the top heel. Something would have had to give regardless of if Bret left, and since Bret had largely been there and done that, Shawn was probably going to get the focus off of him just by virtue of having more uncharted territory as world champion at that time. Not on PPV with as random a guy. HBK the previous year had Diesel, Bulldog, Vader, Mankind, Goldust before losing to Sid. All solid gold main eventers? No but established, pushed upper midcard talent at least, people could get into the matches with them.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,659
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jan 16, 2023 10:41:23 GMT -5
I agree to an extent with the OP. I think Bret as the way Bret wanted to be presented had run it's course. He had been at the top of the card in the WWF for a long time by 1997 and the landscape of the WWF was changing. By the fall of 1997, everything in the WWF felt fresh and new except for Bret and his brothers/brothers in law out there looking the same as they had four years earlier having similar matches and cutting similar promos. The US vs Canada feud was running out of steam and it was clear that Austin and Shawn were the hottest acts going into Wrestlemania. There is always a place for Bret Hart on any wrestling show, but I think they would've had to repackage Bret again had he stayed. I could see him being in that Mick Foley role after Austin won the belt (assuming Shawn still gets hurt in this timeline), but would that really have been better that what we got? I think the WWF in 1998 was a better product creatively without having to find a place for Bret and his brothers.
I think WCW definitely could've used Bret better, but I also agree with the OP that it isn't obvious who to push to the side. This is a roster with Hogan, Flair, Sting, Luger, Savage, Hall, Nash, the Giant, Piper, DDP, Goldberg (eventually) and countless others who were stars in their own right and all still over. Bret has a spot in that group undoubtedly, but it's not like he needed to leap frog all of those guys and be the champion. I don't know. It's tough. I know as a middle school kid, there weren't many people I was less interested in watching by the fall of 1997 than the Hitman. And I say this as someone who thinks Bret is probably the greatest in-ring wrestler of all time.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 16, 2023 12:22:43 GMT -5
I think the thing to remember about Bret in WCW was that (even by his own admission in his book) he just wanted to come in and do his job. He was so burned out by politics from WWF thanks to the screwjob he kept to himself... even admitted he really didn't open up to the WCW roster till towards the end of 98 (and even said they tried to be welcoming and supportive when he first showed up). Heck before Bischoff and Bret started feuding again, Bischoff had pretty much always been complimentary of Bret but said he just was so out of it from Montreal they found it difficult to work with him, and other WCW wrestlers have said that too.
As for 97? I don't think Bret lost momentum so to speak but I think the issues with Shawn backstage became so much that they couldn't really work together but from an on tv perspective you couldn't keep them separate much more
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jan 16, 2023 13:19:17 GMT -5
WCW blew it with Bret, there's no doubt about it. He had an incredible '97 and came in red hot only for it to mean nothing by basically the end of the night.
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Post by sarkerpolseng on Jan 16, 2023 13:47:05 GMT -5
Bret didn't like the direction wrestling was headed in 1997 anyways.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Jan 16, 2023 14:50:58 GMT -5
The factor that changes everything is that DX was only the top heels for a little while because Shawn got hurt. No matter how many times they want to rewrite history, DX was clearly an upper midcard face stable after Shawn got hurt. HHH, Xpac, and the Outlaws could be booked in the main event but none of them individually was going to be a serious world title contender until HHH broke out years later. After Wrestlemania 14 I think Bret becomes the top heel contender for Austin's new title. They can main event Summerslam and then Bret can move on to something different. At that point you have new guys starting to come in like Kurt Angle, Jericho, the Radicalz, and finally the entire invasion angle. There would be some great stuff Bret could do with a lot of those guys. Ironically if Bret had never left. Maybe Wrestlemania 14 is a triple threat? Maybe Shawn doesn't get hurt at the Royal Rumble? Who knows what happens in that butterfly effect. Austin pinning both Bret and Shawn in a triple threat would have been the perfect ending to that story. Austin overcomes the two gangs in DX and the Hart's and is the winner of the feud rising over both
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Post by johnnyk9 on Jan 16, 2023 15:00:35 GMT -5
Bret’s heel turn had to happen or he wouldn’t of survived 1997
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 17, 2023 7:05:34 GMT -5
Bret knew his time as an active performer was limited. He was 40, been wrestling for 20+ years, had a failing marriage and hadn't been home in two decades. So big money in his final active wrestling years would set him up nicely for retirement.
He took his role as senior roster member seriously - he advocated to work with Austin and made him a bonafide main eventer. He also mentored Edge and Mark Henry, and recognized the Rock's talents early on.
So I don't think he would have cared for being a mid-carder by 1999. He was happy to fade into the sunset in 24 months once the active wrestler part of his contract came to an end, having worked with and built up the next generation of talent.
As an aside, I think the focus remains on the Screwjob and his contract payment, but people forget it was a multi-tiered contract whereby the millions stopped after 3 years, and then he took a backstage position at significantly less per annum for 17 years.
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Post by The Barber on Jan 17, 2023 8:21:08 GMT -5
So, he was on the Simpsons, still the only wrestler to do so... I believe you are missing a cameo appearance of one of the greatest to ever do it in his finest role yet...
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Post by evilone on Jan 17, 2023 8:59:35 GMT -5
I agree to an extent with the OP. I think Bret as the way Bret wanted to be presented had run it's course. He had been at the top of the card in the WWF for a long time by 1997 and the landscape of the WWF was changing. By the fall of 1997, everything in the WWF felt fresh and new except for Bret and his brothers/brothers in law out there looking the same as they had four years earlier having similar matches and cutting similar promos. The US vs Canada feud was running out of steam and it was clear that Austin and Shawn were the hottest acts going into Wrestlemania. There is always a place for Bret Hart on any wrestling show, but I think they would've had to repackage Bret again had he stayed. I could see him being in that Mick Foley role after Austin won the belt (assuming Shawn still gets hurt in this timeline), but would that really have been better that what we got? I think the WWF in 1998 was a better product creatively without having to find a place for Bret and his brothers. I think WCW definitely could've used Bret better, but I also agree with the OP that it isn't obvious who to push to the side. This is a roster with Hogan, Flair, Sting, Luger, Savage, Hall, Nash, the Giant, Piper, DDP, Goldberg (eventually) and countless others who were stars in their own right and all still over. Bret has a spot in that group undoubtedly, but it's not like he needed to leap frog all of those guys and be the champion. I don't know. It's tough. I know as a middle school kid, there weren't many people I was less interested in watching by the fall of 1997 than the Hitman. And I say this as someone who thinks Bret is probably the greatest in-ring wrestler of all time. Oh come on! Both he and Vince were the most trending wrestling personalities worldwide right after the screwjob. He was as hot as he had ever been after the whole thing took place. Even a kid could book Bret in WCW to capitilize on the screwjob and shift momentum. Don't you think that hundreds of thousand Bret Hart fans didnt tune into Nitro to see where is Bret? Of course they did. There were so many ways Eric could have played with Bret but he decided to kill the heat in an instant. Booking him as a ref in a timeslot filler match between himself and Larry is something you really deliberately want to do. Don't tell me Eric didn't know that would be a lackluster debut in a Nitro segment where Eric is discussing his stupoid match. Of course he knew. Then on Starcade we had Bret as a ref killing the whole surprise factor when he got involved in Sting vs Hogan match. Here is the most realistic debut booking given the circumstances: Sting couldn't go clean over Hogan that was given. So why not have Bret come out, knock out Hogan to give victory to Sting. Then on next Nitro he would tell that he screweed over the imposter as a his revenge and he is here to clean the house from rats. Something like that. Even a smark could come up with this one. There was no way to screw Bret's momentum in WCW unless you really wanted to. And Bisch wanted to.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 17, 2023 11:08:05 GMT -5
If Bret didn't lose relevance in 1995 when he was wrestling pirates and dentists in the upper midcard, he wasn't going to in 97, where he was a more confident promo, had started to shake up his look and added a vicious streak to his ringwork. It took a lot of effort on WCW's part to kill his heat in the years that followed.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 17, 2023 15:41:45 GMT -5
I agree to an extent with the OP. I think Bret as the way Bret wanted to be presented had run it's course. He had been at the top of the card in the WWF for a long time by 1997 and the landscape of the WWF was changing. By the fall of 1997, everything in the WWF felt fresh and new except for Bret and his brothers/brothers in law out there looking the same as they had four years earlier having similar matches and cutting similar promos. The US vs Canada feud was running out of steam and it was clear that Austin and Shawn were the hottest acts going into Wrestlemania. There is always a place for Bret Hart on any wrestling show, but I think they would've had to repackage Bret again had he stayed. I could see him being in that Mick Foley role after Austin won the belt (assuming Shawn still gets hurt in this timeline), but would that really have been better that what we got? I think the WWF in 1998 was a better product creatively without having to find a place for Bret and his brothers. I think WCW definitely could've used Bret better, but I also agree with the OP that it isn't obvious who to push to the side. This is a roster with Hogan, Flair, Sting, Luger, Savage, Hall, Nash, the Giant, Piper, DDP, Goldberg (eventually) and countless others who were stars in their own right and all still over. Bret has a spot in that group undoubtedly, but it's not like he needed to leap frog all of those guys and be the champion. I don't know. It's tough. I know as a middle school kid, there weren't many people I was less interested in watching by the fall of 1997 than the Hitman. And I say this as someone who thinks Bret is probably the greatest in-ring wrestler of all time. Oh come on! Both he and Vince were the most trending wrestling personalities worldwide right after the screwjob. He was as hot as he had ever been after the whole thing took place. Even a kid could book Bret in WCW to capitilize on the screwjob and shift momentum. Don't you think that hundreds of thousand Bret Hart fans didnt tune into Nitro to see where is Bret? Of course they did. There were so many ways Eric could have played with Bret but he decided to kill the heat in an instant. Booking him as a ref in a timeslot filler match between himself and Larry is something you really deliberately want to do. Don't tell me Eric didn't know that would be a lackluster debut in a Nitro segment where Eric is discussing his stupoid match. Of course he knew. Then on Starcade we had Bret as a ref killing the whole surprise factor when he got involved in Sting vs Hogan match. Here is the most realistic debut booking given the circumstances: Sting couldn't go clean over Hogan that was given. So why not have Bret come out, knock out Hogan to give victory to Sting. Then on next Nitro he would tell that he screweed over the imposter as a his revenge and he is here to clean the house from rats. Something like that. Even a smark could come up with this one. There was no way to screw Bret's momentum in WCW unless you really wanted to. And Bisch wanted to. Because the momentum was all built over real life stuff with his prior employee and a coworker. Once you remove Shawn & Vince I don't think it's transferable because even back then everyone but the markiest of marks would know that whatever WCW did with Hart was a work.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,659
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jan 17, 2023 17:03:40 GMT -5
Oh come on! Both he and Vince were the most trending wrestling personalities worldwide right after the screwjob. He was as hot as he had ever been after the whole thing took place. Even a kid could book Bret in WCW to capitilize on the screwjob and shift momentum. Don't you think that hundreds of thousand Bret Hart fans didnt tune into Nitro to see where is Bret? Of course they did. There were so many ways Eric could have played with Bret but he decided to kill the heat in an instant. Booking him as a ref in a timeslot filler match between himself and Larry is something you really deliberately want to do. Don't tell me Eric didn't know that would be a lackluster debut in a Nitro segment where Eric is discussing his stupoid match. Of course he knew. Then on Starcade we had Bret as a ref killing the whole surprise factor when he got involved in Sting vs Hogan match. Here is the most realistic debut booking given the circumstances: Sting couldn't go clean over Hogan that was given. So why not have Bret come out, knock out Hogan to give victory to Sting. Then on next Nitro he would tell that he screweed over the imposter as a his revenge and he is here to clean the house from rats. Something like that. Even a smark could come up with this one. There was no way to screw Bret's momentum in WCW unless you really wanted to. And Bisch wanted to. Because the momentum was all built over real life stuff with his prior employee and a coworker. Once you remove Shawn & Vince I don't think it's transferable because even back then everyone but the markiest of marks would know that whatever WCW did with Hart was a work. I was young in 1997, but I don't remember anyone really caring about the Screwjob all that much. A lot of my friends just thought it was another storyline. "Who cares if Bret got screwed? He's a jerk who hates America!". I rented Survivor Series when it came out and expected something scandalous to happen and remember thinking "That's it?". I don't think people beyond Observer subscribers cared that much until Wrestling with Shadows came out.
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Post by LiamMcDuggle on Jan 17, 2023 17:20:37 GMT -5
Bret had about a 4 year run as the most popular babyface in the WWF, and then the most hated heel, but by late 97 he was in this weird spot where Austin had completely eclipsed his popularity, and then HBK came in from the other direction and eclipsed his heat. You could hear the fans starting to tepidly warm up to Bret again in the Fall, to the degree that Bret even said "Save your cheers" on an October episode of Raw. Had Bret not left after Survivor Series, it seems he would have found himself in this weird spot for the first time since the dawn of the New Generation era where he was active and yet not the hottest act on the roster. And yes, I remember '95 where he was feuding with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem while Diesel was in the limelight, but Bret never relinquished the mantle of most popular wrestler in the WWF until Austin claimed it at WM13. It's interesting to consider that this is exactly where he landed in WCW, somewhere around the top but not at the top. He was never going to be more popular than Sting or Goldberg, even if they put the belt on him. Likewise, he was not going to dethrone Hogan as the top heel. I've always looked at Bret after Montreal and had this expectation that he should have been the hottest act in wrestling, but after watching through his last few months in the WWF, it's clear that he'd not only fallen from being the hottest act in wrestling BEFORE Montreal, but he had been on a course with no clear trajectory since the conclusion of the Austin feud. I'm not saying WCW couldn't have done better with him, but it looks to me like Bret's career peaked quite a while before Montreal, maybe even with WM 12, and 1997 was the start of a slide that continued into WCW. In the WWE, I would say 1997 was the most over he ever was. WCW doing nothing with him killed his momentum though. Personally, I would have him debuted at Starcadde 1997 and just stardown Sting as a defeated Hogan looked on.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,865
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Post by tirtefaa on Jan 17, 2023 17:46:15 GMT -5
I was young in 1997, but I don't remember anyone really caring about the Screwjob all that much. A lot of my friends just thought it was another storyline. "Who cares if Bret got screwed? He's a jerk who hates America!". I rented Survivor Series when it came out and expected something scandalous to happen and remember thinking "That's it?". I don't think people beyond Observer subscribers cared that much until Wrestling with Shadows came out. Yeah, I mean Bret was one of my all time favorites, but just about everyone I knew who was watching WWF in 1997 at the time only really cared about Austin. In WCW, there was far more of a diverse opinion on who was "the guy", so honestly I could see how a lot of people who were watching both would have been stoked about Bret joining WCW. And I kind of agree with the OP as well. Yeah, WCW screwed up...but I doubt staying in WWF would have been beneficial to any of the Attitude Era stars given the need to maintain Bret's credibility. WWF clearing out it's main event in 1998 sans Undertaker was the best decision for WWF, focusing on Austin being the top guy while building up multiple stars for him to contend against. It's sure better than to rehash Bret and Austin again, especially given that I felt their story was concluded well enough.
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Post by sfvega on Jan 17, 2023 19:17:26 GMT -5
HBK was the top "heel" but he was getting cheered everywhere. Bret was their top true heel, and was getting the most reactions on the mic that he ever did. It was a great dynamic of the times changing and a wrestler not, but he steered into the skid better than Hogan at the time who was cutting painfully long, crowd-killing 80's heel promos.
One of the biggest issues is that the heat worked against his character. Bret adapted to the times as a heel, but not really as a face. He has all this sympathy, but he doesn't really cut good babyface promos in 97/98 for a face. Guys who got over as faces either pushed the envelope (SCSA, DX, and on and on) or were innately cool (DDP, Nash, Rock, Goldberg but he didn't talk.) Bret wasn't naturally either of those things. He can't capitalize on his babyface momentum and as a heel in WCW all roads lead to the NWO. Checkmate.
Ideally, Bret stays a heel in 98 and stays far away the NWO. If you make him a face, the crowd would probably lose interest after a few months. He would need to change it up and adapt like Jericho has many times, but probably not until 99 as he still had plenty in the tank as a stick-in-the-mud heel who was diametrically opposed to pushing the envelope.
Also, worth noting that Bret stood out in WWF at the time because 3/4 of the company was based upon sex appeal and cussing. With Standards and Practices at Turner, there wasn't an "establishment" there for Bret to be against. Hard to rail against R-rated content in a company made to be PG. So what can he naturally foil?
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mc74
Samurai Cop
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Post by mc74 on Jan 17, 2023 21:43:18 GMT -5
Bret punching Scott Hall was the absolute biggest pop the entire night of Starrcade '97. He could have absolutely been the top face or top heel if handled right. He's Bret Hart. It took a lot of deliberate factors in a row to cut his legs out repeatedly as both a face and a heel during his WCW run - but the problem was never, ever at any point Bret. As for had he stayed in WWF - I can see a Hart Foundation split with Owen as a face feuding with heel Bret elevating Owen to a stronger main event stasus, and then you have Bret being able to bring the best out of and elevate further new talent whether face or heel. A full-fledged Bret-Rock feud could have been amazing. Or, if everything else in history happens how it does but with Bret staying in WWE/F, you have Bret on Smackdown in 2002 with a dream roster of opponents and having just as many twilight career gems as Shawn did over on Raw. EDIT: Or imagine heel Bret aligning with Vince as the one guy who had never left the WWF since 1985 longer than anyone. The ultimate evil corporate guy who turns into the trustworthy believable captain in the 2001 Invasion. Heel Bret in the Attitude Era would've made for a good story if you booked in a way where Bret is at odds with the direction wrestling was trending in. Being a more traditional wrestler, you could have Bret feud with guys who he believes are desecrating the very traditions of wrestling (like how he treated HBK in early 1997). You could also have him cut promos talking about how the company would be better-suited for having a role model/champion who brings honor & prestige to the WWF and whatnot. Pretty much what his heel turn was encompassed around minus the anti-American angle.
Him siding with Vince would've been interesting too because of this. If anyone could fit the role of corporate champion perfectly, it was Bret.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,865
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Post by tirtefaa on Jan 17, 2023 22:12:59 GMT -5
With Standards and Practices at Turner, there wasn't an "establishment" there for Bret to be against. Hard to rail against R-rated content in a company made to be PG. So what can he naturally foil? The obvious answer is the nWo. It doesn't take a lot of spin to really build that up properly, given that Bret could push heavily into the idea of Bischoff and Hogan's corruption at the top, something he himself endured elsewhere and something he was unwilling to see play out again. Once his no compete clause was up, he'd have a loose alliance with Sting, Luger, DDP and maybe the Steiners. You then swap Sting for Hart at Superbrawl, have him win the title, leading to tension between Hart and Sting. Hart then loses to Savage, and goes on to turn heel and feuds with Sting, maybe giving him another title run before Goldberg gets his run. This all depends on Bret's schedule though, since he was working a very light schedule from what I remember.
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Post by Triangle Lancer on Jan 17, 2023 22:37:44 GMT -5
I could actually have seen Bret in The Rock’s place as The Corporate Champion For me, more Mankind's position, the initial corporate candidate, but gets thrown under the bus to get the belt on Rocky. Nice! But substitute Rocky for Austin. Then the whole Vince-Austin back and forth after WM14 still happens; Bret in the middle.
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Post by sfvega on Jan 17, 2023 23:51:37 GMT -5
With Standards and Practices at Turner, there wasn't an "establishment" there for Bret to be against. Hard to rail against R-rated content in a company made to be PG. So what can he naturally foil? The obvious answer is the nWo. It doesn't take a lot of spin to really build that up properly, given that Bret could push heavily into the idea of Bischoff and Hogan's corruption at the top, something he himself endured elsewhere and something he was unwilling to see play out again. Once his no compete clause was up, he'd have a loose alliance with Sting, Luger, DDP and maybe the Steiners. You then swap Sting for Hart at Superbrawl, have him win the title, leading to tension between Hart and Sting. Hart then loses to Savage, and goes on to turn heel and feuds with Sting, maybe giving him another title run before Goldberg gets his run. This all depends on Bret's schedule though, since he was working a very light schedule from what I remember. Bret is my all-time fave, but he's just not a good fit for a NWO foil. Sting was WCW's franchise, Goldberg was a one-man army, DDP had more guts than sense, and Nash and Savage were the friction from within. They were all more natural fits for a full-fledged feud with the NWO and, outside of Sting, they ultimately (namely when Bret was there) had relatively lackluster feuds with the faction. Hogan didn't want to sell for Bret. Nash was never again physically able to have a match as good as their WWF match, and had some sour feelings about Bret not wanting to take his finisher. The problem is the same with so, SO many of WCW's main event feuds is the match-ups that you wanted to see would not end up very good in the ring because of 30 other issues outside of it. After the Goldberg moment, the guy who had the most heat with Hogan was Nash and we all saw how that went. Nash and Goldberg was an overbooked mess. Goldberg/DDP was amazing and almost nobody really saw it. Flair/Hogan was a booking disaster. Sting/Hogan was the biggest disaster to ever happen. Hogan/Bret would not have gone well. Nash/Bret would not have gone well. Hall/Bret would have been a great match that they gave away on free TV. All roads lead to more main event mediocrity.
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