tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 14, 2023 20:13:20 GMT -5
Bret had about a 4 year run as the most popular babyface in the WWF, and then the most hated heel, but by late 97 he was in this weird spot where Austin had completely eclipsed his popularity, and then HBK came in from the other direction and eclipsed his heat. You could hear the fans starting to tepidly warm up to Bret again in the Fall, to the degree that Bret even said "Save your cheers" on an October episode of Raw. Had Bret not left after Survivor Series, it seems he would have found himself in this weird spot for the first time since the dawn of the New Generation era where he was active and yet not the hottest act on the roster. And yes, I remember '95 where he was feuding with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem while Diesel was in the limelight, but Bret never relinquished the mantle of most popular wrestler in the WWF until Austin claimed it at WM13.
It's interesting to consider that this is exactly where he landed in WCW, somewhere around the top but not at the top. He was never going to be more popular than Sting or Goldberg, even if they put the belt on him. Likewise, he was not going to dethrone Hogan as the top heel. I've always looked at Bret after Montreal and had this expectation that he should have been the hottest act in wrestling, but after watching through his last few months in the WWF, it's clear that he'd not only fallen from being the hottest act in wrestling BEFORE Montreal, but he had been on a course with no clear trajectory since the conclusion of the Austin feud. I'm not saying WCW couldn't have done better with him, but it looks to me like Bret's career peaked quite a while before Montreal, maybe even with WM 12, and 1997 was the start of a slide that continued into WCW.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 14, 2023 20:58:26 GMT -5
The Michaels stuff is interesting because his rise as the top heel coincides with Vince first getting cold feet & then deciding outright that he couldn't afford Bret's contract. So would HBK & DX have happened in the same way had Vince not been iffy about the deal he made with Bret the year prior?
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jan 15, 2023 3:15:28 GMT -5
Bret punching Scott Hall was the absolute biggest pop the entire night of Starrcade '97.
He could have absolutely been the top face or top heel if handled right. He's Bret Hart. It took a lot of deliberate factors in a row to cut his legs out repeatedly as both a face and a heel during his WCW run - but the problem was never, ever at any point Bret.
As for had he stayed in WWF - I can see a Hart Foundation split with Owen as a face feuding with heel Bret elevating Owen to a stronger main event stasus, and then you have Bret being able to bring the best out of and elevate further new talent whether face or heel. A full-fledged Bret-Rock feud could have been amazing. Or, if everything else in history happens how it does but with Bret staying in WWE/F, you have Bret on Smackdown in 2002 with a dream roster of opponents and having just as many twilight career gems as Shawn did over on Raw.
EDIT: Or imagine heel Bret aligning with Vince as the one guy who had never left the WWF since 1985 longer than anyone. The ultimate evil corporate guy who turns into the trustworthy believable captain in the 2001 Invasion.
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Post by Secret Clown on Jan 15, 2023 3:23:37 GMT -5
He would have worked as a pure heel (at least in the USA). Not doing the anti-American thing but more but how wrestling isn’t what it used to be.
DX we’re the cool heels so were getting mixed reactions and Austin was a face.
There could have been some good triple threats between Austin, HBK & Bret.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 15, 2023 4:52:52 GMT -5
So, he was on the Simpsons, still the only wrestler to do so, he was involved in the biggest feud in the WWF, he was involved in the biggest contract in wrestling history, he was involved in the biggest real life interceding into kayfabe, he jumped to the biggest competition on their biggest PPV ever...yes Bret should have killed himself in 1997 because nothing happened for him that year.
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Post by evilone on Jan 15, 2023 5:07:39 GMT -5
After all I think Bret was properly compensated by WCW for having his legs cut off right from the get go.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jan 15, 2023 5:24:50 GMT -5
No of course not, he was as over as he'd ever been when he left WWF in 1997. He would have worked with Rock on his ascent as well considering how he looked out for him.
WCW booked him badly. That's not Bret's fault
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Post by cassonova on Jan 15, 2023 9:27:50 GMT -5
I don't see how WCW could cut Bret's leg out from under him when Owen kick Bret's leg outta his leg in 1994.
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tafkaga
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the Dogfather
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 15, 2023 9:31:35 GMT -5
Of course, I agree that Bret still had a lot to contribute, and could have easily stayed in the top 3-5 in WWF for years to come, or been in the top 3-5 guys in WCW for years to come. I'm not arguing that he was Randy Savage in 1999, but more that he was Randy Savage in 1993. Still plenty of tread on the tires, but his peak was behind him, both in terms of popularity and in terms of career trajectory. Austin, HBK, Rock, Sting, Goldberg... those were all guys in late '97 who were at their peak or on the verge of reaching it, and by '97 Bret had become more of a facilitator than he was being looked at as an 'it' guy.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jan 15, 2023 15:25:07 GMT -5
So he was "aimless after the Austin fued" despite being WWF Champion. Ok.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Jan 15, 2023 16:14:05 GMT -5
Bret suffered from a lack of direction consistent with what got him over in the WWF.
The smart money would have been to have Bret show up at the end of Starrcade and have a staredown with Sting setting up a title match between the WCW Champion and the exiled WWF Champion.
That was the only way to continue the momentum he had after Survivor Series 1997.
Perhaps have it lead to him establishing a WCW version of the Hart Foundation with Benoit and Jericho.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 15, 2023 18:16:50 GMT -5
So he was "aimless after the Austin fued" despite being WWF Champion. Ok. Not exactly what I said. Regardless, I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. A character can wear a title belt without having a clear trajectory.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on Jan 15, 2023 18:28:39 GMT -5
Bret "seeing the light" and turning face on Owen and Bulldog to align with Steve Austin of all people in 1998, would probably be nuclear heat.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jan 15, 2023 22:10:29 GMT -5
So he was "aimless after the Austin fued" despite being WWF Champion. Ok. Not exactly what I said. Regardless, I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. A character can wear a title belt without having a clear trajectory. It was the top title in the company. He was main eventing PPVs and was one of 4 featured players in the company-wide storyline. I genuinely cannot understand what your point is.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 16, 2023 5:25:53 GMT -5
Not exactly what I said. Regardless, I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. A character can wear a title belt without having a clear trajectory. It was the top title in the company. He was main eventing PPVs and was one of 4 featured players in the company-wide storyline. I genuinely cannot understand what your point is. I can see a little bit of it. The US v Canada stuff was great but there wasn't really 1 guy to really represent that. Post Wrestlemania, he was still feuding with Austin, but that was in a group. Same with Canadian Stampede, as legendary as it was it was a team effort not necessarily about Bret in himself. His last title win was more about setting up HBK v Taker, while Bret had to fight the bloody Patriot for 2 months! Then you get to Survivor Series. He was absolutely featured at the top, he did some of the best work of his career but in 1997, post Austin he didn't have that 1 big nemesis to go after so I can see where it can look a bit unfocussed.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Jan 16, 2023 8:02:12 GMT -5
I could actually have seen Bret in The Rock’s place as The Corporate Champion
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 16, 2023 8:10:40 GMT -5
I could actually have seen Bret in The Rock’s place as The Corporate Champion For me, more Mankind's position, the initial corporate candidate, but gets thrown under the bus to get the belt on Rocky.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 16, 2023 8:19:09 GMT -5
It was the top title in the company. He was main eventing PPVs and was one of 4 featured players in the company-wide storyline. I genuinely cannot understand what your point is. I can see a little bit of it. The US v Canada stuff was great but there wasn't really 1 guy to really represent that. Post Wrestlemania, he was still feuding with Austin, but that was in a group. Same with Canadian Stampede, as legendary as it was it was a team effort not necessarily about Bret in himself. His last title win was more about setting up HBK v Taker, while Bret had to fight the bloody Patriot for 2 months! Then you get to Survivor Series. He was absolutely featured at the top, he did some of the best work of his career but in 1997, post Austin he didn't have that 1 big nemesis to go after so I can see where it can look a bit unfocussed. Yeah, I remember part of Bret's autobiography where he points to moments in '97 and how it felt a bit like the end of '95-early '96 for him - he might've had the title, but he was often being used to get separate storylines over, like Diesel/Taker going into WM 12 or the Hell in a Cell match in '97 or what have you. It was a long issue with Vince's booking of Bret: yes, he'd be at or near the top, but there was always a feeling like Vince was trying to reduce Bret's heat in order to get (insert other wrestler here) over. It worked like aces with Austin, of course, but it created situations like, as you say, Bret feuding with the Patriot or something.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 16, 2023 8:25:15 GMT -5
The factor that changes everything is that DX was only the top heels for a little while because Shawn got hurt. No matter how many times they want to rewrite history, DX was clearly an upper midcard face stable after Shawn got hurt. HHH, Xpac, and the Outlaws could be booked in the main event but none of them individually was going to be a serious world title contender until HHH broke out years later.
After Wrestlemania 14 I think Bret becomes the top heel contender for Austin's new title. They can main event Summerslam and then Bret can move on to something different. At that point you have new guys starting to come in like Kurt Angle, Jericho, the Radicalz, and finally the entire invasion angle. There would be some great stuff Bret could do with a lot of those guys.
Ironically if Bret had never left. Maybe Wrestlemania 14 is a triple threat? Maybe Shawn doesn't get hurt at the Royal Rumble? Who knows what happens in that butterfly effect.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 16, 2023 8:43:48 GMT -5
I can see a little bit of it. The US v Canada stuff was great but there wasn't really 1 guy to really represent that. Post Wrestlemania, he was still feuding with Austin, but that was in a group. Same with Canadian Stampede, as legendary as it was it was a team effort not necessarily about Bret in himself. His last title win was more about setting up HBK v Taker, while Bret had to fight the bloody Patriot for 2 months! Then you get to Survivor Series. He was absolutely featured at the top, he did some of the best work of his career but in 1997, post Austin he didn't have that 1 big nemesis to go after so I can see where it can look a bit unfocussed. Yeah, I remember part of Bret's autobiography where he points to moments in '97 and how it felt a bit like the end of '95-early '96 for him - he might've had the title, but he was often being used to get separate storylines over, like Diesel/Taker going into WM 12 or the Hell in a Cell match in '97 or what have you. It was a long issue with Vince's booking of Bret: yes, he'd be at or near the top, but there was always a feeling like Vince was trying to reduce Bret's heat in order to get (insert other wrestler here) over. It worked like aces with Austin, of course, but it created situations like, as you say, Bret feuding with the Patriot or something. With Patriot, world champions have those kinds of feuds all the time, like certainly not every guy Hogan faced realistically had a big chance of beating him. Really, as is so often the case with Bret, his biggest issue would be a Shawn one: I think D-X being heels was undermining the Hart Foundation to an extent. They were not both going to be the top heel. Something would have had to give regardless of if Bret left, and since Bret had largely been there and done that, Shawn was probably going to get the focus off of him just by virtue of having more uncharted territory as world champion at that time.
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