Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 12, 2023 12:01:04 GMT -5
Running Kayfabe Logic.... he's not even in the Top 5. It's one thing to cheat and use underhanded tactics as a heel and still look "strong". It's another thing to have followers blatantly assault your opponents during the match, repeatedly and win. Roman isn't getting assisted by a manager's distraction here or a trip/slap there. He's not winning with a tug of the tights or a well hidden low blow very often. It's flat out multiple men entering the ring and performing multiple finishing moves and flat out multi-minute beat downs. In a pure kayfabe aspect, Roman looks fairly weak as champion. Dude just can't win a match on his own lately. Kayfabe should have him as a paper tiger not a GOAT. In kayfabe, Motherf***er doesn't cheat because he can, he cheats because he needs to. And that cheating almost always comes from one of his cousins.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Apr 12, 2023 13:04:15 GMT -5
I mean, yes. Even during his diabolical face run he went through Lesnar, Cena, Strowman and Hunter and was 1 of 2 to drop ‘Taker at WM. He’s certainly on the docket for kayfabe GOAT and that’s before the current Tribal Chief run.
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Post by Aceorton on Apr 12, 2023 14:23:45 GMT -5
Even within this thread, there are clearly multiple interpretations of what defines "greatest."
Are we talking most high-profile title defenses against big names? Longest reign? Popularity? Mainstream cultural awareness? Biggest ticket/merchandise mover? Aura of invincibility?
I like Roman, but he's none of those. I'd say the answers to the above are Flair/Cena/Austin, Bruno, Austin, Hogan/Austin, Austin and Hogan.
That said, kayfabe done correctly should treat the current thing as the best thing (although WWE has been hit-or-miss with this for a while in terms of over-glorifying legends at the expense of active talent). Why would you want to see a champion who isn't presented as being the GOAT? Through that lens, then, yes, Roman should be in the GOAT conversation in kayfabe terms, simply for promotional purposes.
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Post by Doo Doo Dickhead on Apr 12, 2023 16:07:34 GMT -5
Roman is the GOAT at cheating, probably!
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Post by CeilingFan on Apr 12, 2023 16:11:27 GMT -5
John Cena was the last one to reach GOAT status. Reigns is nowhere close.
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bob
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Post by bob on Apr 12, 2023 16:18:22 GMT -5
nope
Bruno's reign makes him the GOAT in kayfabe
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Apr 12, 2023 16:19:39 GMT -5
Gotta be Vacant
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Post by Cyno on Apr 12, 2023 16:21:15 GMT -5
I think the systematic cheating really hurts Roman's candidacy. It's hard to consider any heel a GOAT for that reason outside of Lesnar IMO.
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Post by chronocross on Apr 12, 2023 16:47:23 GMT -5
While I like Roman, I would say as Hogan/Austin have him beat there.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 12, 2023 18:12:33 GMT -5
I mean, yes. Even during his diabolical face run he went through Lesnar, Cena, Strowman and Hunter and was 1 of 2 to drop ‘Taker at WM. He’s certainly on the docket for kayfabe GOAT and that’s before the current Tribal Chief run. One big problem with that - as a face, Roman is, and was, quite simply, a choke artist.
It took him five attempts to win the big one, and when he finally did, it was against Dean Ambrose, an even bigger bottler than Roman was. Reigns then lost the title 5 minutes later to Sheamus, who had all the warmth of a frozen food isle. He had the shit kicked out of him by Beastie Boy at 'mania in 2015 and 2018. There was another bottle job against Lesnar in Saudi Arabia (Reigns had his foot on the apron after the cage broke) and he only beat Brock at Summerslam in 2018 thanks to a distraction from Braun Strowman.
Dude managed to look even worse when after one of the tamest table bumps of all time, both Reigns and Strowman were laid out on the canvas for over ten minutes before Lesnar pulled the cage door off and laid both dudes out which somehow resulted in a no contest.
He also looked like an absolute bum in 2 straight Royal Rumble matches, the first when he got lucky eliminating Big Show and Kane, the second when he walked to the back after being put through the announce table instead of staying out there and fighting for his title.
So no, dude isn't the GOAT. Nowhere near.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Apr 12, 2023 22:33:59 GMT -5
In kayfabe terms the GOAT is probably Lesnar. If WWE was real there'd probably be a three way debate between Hogan, Undertaker, and Brock but the people denying Brock would probably just be embittered oldheads because the dude dominated two different eras and schooled almost every other main eventer he faced. The only mark against him would be that he lost to a prime Cena. He also excelled in a different discipline, another strong GOAT mark.
I suppose it's also generally been demonstrated that wrestling is like boxing or, idk, jazz, and today's wrestlers are less skilled than their predecessors. So that would be a mark for Hogan. Guys like Warrior and Goldberg would be considered one trick ponys and Warrior would probably be a case where everyone knew he was on f***ing meth or something
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Jonathan Michaels
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Apr 12, 2023 23:38:49 GMT -5
I think the systematic cheating really hurts Roman's candidacy. It's hard to consider any heel a GOAT for that reason outside of Lesnar IMO. Roman cheats so much he makes Miz look like Rey Mysterio.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Apr 13, 2023 3:27:12 GMT -5
this dude is just jinder with worse music, no way. every match ends the same
I like Roman a lot and he’s mega money but damn beat someone clean for once if you’re supposed to be god mode
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 13, 2023 15:13:03 GMT -5
I mean, yes. Even during his diabolical face run he went through Lesnar, Cena, Strowman and Hunter and was 1 of 2 to drop ‘Taker at WM. He’s certainly on the docket for kayfabe GOAT and that’s before the current Tribal Chief run. One big problem with that - as a face, Roman is, and was, quite simply, a choke artist.
It took him five attempts to win the big one, and when he finally did, it was against Dean Ambrose, an even bigger bottler than Roman was. Reigns then lost the title 5 minutes later to Sheamus, who had all the warmth of a frozen food isle. He had the shit kicked out of him by Beastie Boy at 'mania in 2015 and 2018. There was another bottle job against Lesnar in Saudi Arabia (Reigns had his foot on the apron after the cage broke) and he only beat Brock at Summerslam in 2018 thanks to a distraction from Braun Strowman.
Dude managed to look even worse when after one of the tamest table bumps of all time, both Reigns and Strowman were laid out on the canvas for over ten minutes before Lesnar pulled the cage door off and laid both dudes out which somehow resulted in a no contest.
He also looked like an absolute bum in 2 straight Royal Rumble matches, the first when he got lucky eliminating Big Show and Kane, the second when he walked to the back after being put through the announce table instead of staying out there and fighting for his title.
So no, dude isn't the GOAT. Nowhere near.
I was trying to make this point in a different thread a week or so back but didn't have the examples like you did. I think one of the major reasons Reigns failed as a babyface is that they didn't push him hard enough. I think they were trying to prevent the backlash they got from Super Cena and they thought that if they didn't let Roman win all the time and when he did win make him look kind of lucky, fans wouldn't turn on him like they did Cena, nor would they notice that he was still main eventing every big show. Had they just grit their teeth and pushed him like a triumphant, worthy babyface, booing be damned, I think crowds would have come around eventually. Hell, mega heel Roman Reigns now gets cheered by half the crowd for the simple fact that he wins all the time and crowds, even in simulated sports, like to cheer for winners.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Apr 13, 2023 15:23:59 GMT -5
He's top 10, MAYBE near top 5 but you can't put him above Bruno/Hogan/Cena/Brock on a kayfabe level. They beat literally everyone and could do it fair and square.
Roman as a heel needs help to win a lot of the time and even as a face most of his biggest wins were against top guys who at the point Roman beat them were winding down their careers (Taker, HHH, Cena). He didn't beat them at their peak. He also never got a clean win over Brock in many attempts.
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Post by joeiscool on Apr 14, 2023 10:47:24 GMT -5
Bret? I'd say Roman is now more popular than Bret ever was. Roman's never been on the Simpsons. Bret has never been on The Tonight Show ,a Movie involving the Fast and Furious, or a Disney animated series
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 14, 2023 10:51:00 GMT -5
If we're talking kayfabe, he's up there, but Bruno and Hogan probably win out.
Still, Roman and his booking has issues, but at least credibility isn't really the issue anymore and hasn't been for a while now.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 14, 2023 10:53:31 GMT -5
Nah.
Hogan and Bruno still have him beat on longevity. And they didn’t need constant interference to win their matches (WWF Hogan anyway).
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 14, 2023 11:45:33 GMT -5
To look at it this way, his ONLY claim to being the GOAT is a single title reign which has largely been sustained by hilarious amounts of cheating.
Even comparing him to Ric Flair another massive cheater in the GOAT conversations he did it multiple times, and had on more than a few occasions actually managed to win on his own.
There's also a big difference between cheating to win, and only winning because you cheated. Roman falls into the latter camp.
Let's review:
Kevin Owens had him beat in all 4 of their title defenses but Roman won via a combination of Ref Bumps and Uso interference. Daniel Bryan literally made him tap out before Edge snapped and beat him with a chair. Edge had Roman dead to rights at Wrestlemania and Money in the Bank when he was saved by the Usos and/or Seth Rollins Usos and Heyman repeatedly bailed him out against Lesnar including a visual pin in Saudi Arabia, and Uso interference saving him from a table F5 which would have definitely ended the match Finn Balor had Roman pinned when the Usos pulled out the ref... And then Finn gave the term Ropebreak a WHOLE new meaning Drew clearly had him pinned before Solo Sikoa pulled the ref out. Sami Zayn had him beat multiple times and would have taken it if not for a ref bump and MORE Uso Interference Cody had him dead to rights for that third Cross Rhodes when Solo again interfered.
Let's also remember his greatest rivalries have generally been very one sided and NOT in his favor.
Seth Rollins has never been pinned by Roman in any meaningful match, in fact both of their PPV title encounters Seth has won (albeit once by DQ)
Mean while he was Brock's bitch for pretty much their entire feud, with Roman never scoring a decisive win of any sort against Lesnar, with the closest being Summerslam 2018 where Lesnar got distracted by attacking Braun Strowman when he clearly had Roman dead to rights.
Speaking of Braun, Roman again only has two real victories over him, meanwhile Braun has routinely beat 7 shades of dog shit out of Roman each time they fought.
So basically no.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 14, 2023 12:59:09 GMT -5
No, it will always be Hulk Hogan.
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