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Post by katieklaus on Oct 4, 2023 23:44:58 GMT -5
Was there ever any truth to the rumour that WCW were legally not allowed to have Bret Hart as part of a stable reminiscent of the Hart Foundation? I can't understand how that would be legally enforceable by the WWF at all as long as they didn't use the name. I always thought that would have been best for Bret coming in. Surround him with some of his close confidantes and let them feud with The Horsemen and NWO. If it wasn't legal issues why didn't this happen? If it was the fact that they couldn't or didn't want to bring in his buddies then there was plenty of Canadian talent to use instead of your typical Anvil/Bulldog etc. guys or actual Harts. The Stampede or The Dungeon would have been cool names for a group too.
If they didn't want to go that route what do you think of Bret in the Horsemen and eventually splitting off and feuding with Flair? I think Bret would have been a great fit as a Horseman who eventually breaks it apart taking some guys with him into a splinter group. I know WCW were already looking at Flair as a guy past his prime but there's no way that Hart/Flair wouldn't have been a goer.
Thoughts?
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 5, 2023 0:36:49 GMT -5
I do not think it was ever formally illegal, no, though it's worth remembering the legal threats that got Scott Hall to drop the pseudo-Cuban accent, to make it explicitly stated that Scott was NOT acting on behalf of the WWF, etc, and just in general WCW and the WWF slinging legal threats and trying to intimidate the other party. In that environment, I could see WCW being antsy about the idea of doing the faction.
Additionally, I just could see various reasons for them not doing the faction. WCW probably saw some value in Bulldog, but he was well past his prime, and with Neidhart, he absolutely would have been there by the grace of Hitman and not much else. I also don't think Bischoff, Hogan, etc, would have been thrilled with giving Bret much leverage, anyway, besides what he'd have already had, so Bret being pulled into the nWo's orbit, etc, was a way of trying to benefit from Bret without really going all the way with using him. Then again, given WCW's incompetence at certain points, it's hard to tell where the malice starts and where short-sighted stupidity is the likely culprit.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Oct 5, 2023 8:26:01 GMT -5
The Horsemen were a unique stable, because their popularity was very much centered in that southeast area of the country, and they continued to get pops mostly because fans were loyal to Flair and Arn. I think Benoit worked because he'd gained national recognition in WCW and those fans felt he was one of 'their' guys. As for Bret, I detected the same kind of resistance to him as Hogan got when he first came to WCW. There were plenty of cheers, but it wasn't this 'omg dream come true' reception they were hoping for. So, for that reason I don't see the fans buying Bret as a Horseman.
Best thing they could have done with Bret, IMO, is have him start at the bottom, announce he's going to prove himself to the WCW fans, let him work with Regal, Booker T, Bagwell, Flair, and give him six months to just be Bret Hart and let the fans warm up to him better before they try to find his spot in the nWo/main event mix. Anvil and Bulldog were awful at this point in their careers, and even though the nostalgic part of me would have marked out to see a Hart Foundation faction in WCW, I don't think it would have done Bret any favors.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 5, 2023 12:43:17 GMT -5
The Horsemen were a unique stable, because their popularity was very much centered in that southeast area of the country, and they continued to get pops mostly because fans were loyal to Flair and Arn. I think Benoit worked because he'd gained national recognition in WCW and those fans felt he was one of 'their' guys. As for Bret, I detected the same kind of resistance to him as Hogan got when he first came to WCW. There were plenty of cheers, but it wasn't this 'omg dream come true' reception they were hoping for. So, for that reason I don't see the fans buying Bret as a Horseman. Best thing they could have done with Bret, IMO, is have him start at the bottom, announce he's going to prove himself to the WCW fans, let him work with Regal, Booker T, Bagwell, Flair, and give him six months to just be Bret Hart and let the fans warm up to him better before they try to find his spot in the nWo/main event mix. Anvil and Bulldog were awful at this point in their careers, and even though the nostalgic part of me would have marked out to see a Hart Foundation faction in WCW, I don't think it would have done Bret any favors. I think in isolation that'd make sense (Bret so often thrived when he was a fighting champion or the underdog rising up the ranks), but I do think it'd have been pretty tough to do given that he was coming over with the Screwjob hanging over everything and being the biggest story in wrestling. I get why they wanted to strike early with that being the case...but as mentioned above, Hogan no doubt wanted to short circuit that as quickly as possible to ensure that Hart would be "just another guy". |
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 5, 2023 13:07:10 GMT -5
If you were going to build a faction around Bret, it would probably have been better to do a proto-team Canada. On top of Benoit, there were plenty of Canadian born stats in WCW at the time. A Bret Hart led evil Canadian faction could have been a plausible substitute for the NWO had that storyline ended inn97-98.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Oct 5, 2023 13:07:20 GMT -5
I wonder what Pillman would've done as a result to the screw job? How long was his contract he signed for
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Oct 5, 2023 14:13:11 GMT -5
The Horsemen were a unique stable, because their popularity was very much centered in that southeast area of the country, and they continued to get pops mostly because fans were loyal to Flair and Arn. I think Benoit worked because he'd gained national recognition in WCW and those fans felt he was one of 'their' guys. As for Bret, I detected the same kind of resistance to him as Hogan got when he first came to WCW. There were plenty of cheers, but it wasn't this 'omg dream come true' reception they were hoping for. So, for that reason I don't see the fans buying Bret as a Horseman. Best thing they could have done with Bret, IMO, is have him start at the bottom, announce he's going to prove himself to the WCW fans, let him work with Regal, Booker T, Bagwell, Flair, and give him six months to just be Bret Hart and let the fans warm up to him better before they try to find his spot in the nWo/main event mix. Anvil and Bulldog were awful at this point in their careers, and even though the nostalgic part of me would have marked out to see a Hart Foundation faction in WCW, I don't think it would have done Bret any favors. I think in isolation that'd make sense (Bret so often thrived when he was a fighting champion or the underdog rising up the ranks), but I do think it'd have been pretty tough to do given that he was coming over with the Screwjob hanging over everything and being the biggest story in wrestling. I get why they wanted to strike early with that being the case...but as mentioned above, Hogan no doubt wanted to short circuit that as quickly as possible to ensure that Hart would be "just another guy". I think they could have still worked that into it, with Bischoff or Hogan trying to sabotage his rise. I just think they either needed to start Bret down the card and let him build momentum as a WCW competitor, or start him at the top and let him do something truly momentous in his very first appearance. I think it would have been interesting if they did a reverse of WM9 at Starrcade 97. Sting makes Hogan tap to the Scorpion, but the ref legit doesn't see it due to nWo shenanigans. Sting gets knocked out with a chair and Hogan covers him for the win. Then Bret comes out to save Sting, causing Bischoff to get pissed because Bret was supposed to be nWo, so Bischoff starts challenging Bret while Hogan is still groggy. Nick Patrick takes it seriously and decides to make it an impromptu match and Bret demolishes Hogan and beats him with the Sharpshooter, winning the WCW title. Would be a cool moment, and the controversy would mean big ratings on Nitro, where JJ Dillon would declare the belt vacant. Hogan is pissed at Bischoff, spelling the beginning of the end for the nWo, Bret can do his "I see I'm going to get screwed wherever I go", and Sting would then drop from the rafters and point his bat at both of them, then himself, then the belt, setting up a big 3-way for SuperBrawl where Sting beats Hogan clean while Bret is fighting off nWo. |
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Oct 5, 2023 14:31:51 GMT -5
The Horsemen were a unique stable, because their popularity was very much centered in that southeast area of the country, and they continued to get pops mostly because fans were loyal to Flair and Arn. I think Benoit worked because he'd gained national recognition in WCW and those fans felt he was one of 'their' guys. As for Bret, I detected the same kind of resistance to him as Hogan got when he first came to WCW. There were plenty of cheers, but it wasn't this 'omg dream come true' reception they were hoping for. So, for that reason I don't see the fans buying Bret as a Horseman. I noticed this a few years ago watching back a lot of old Nitros and PPVs. The WCW crowds didn't really take to Bret. When he tricked Goldberg with the metal plate and winning the world title at Mayhem got big reactions with both being in Canada but in general he wasn't very over. His debut should have been one of the biggest moments in wrestling history and gotten a massive pop after all the controversy with the screwjob but he gets a very mild reaction. Then his first feud with Flair the fans side with Flair who is the ultimate WCW guy. Bret v Hennig at Uncensored you could hear a pin drop during that match. Even before all the is he or isn't he with the NWO/Hogan stuff things just weren't clicking. WCW was still red hot in 98 with raucous crowds but Bret would regularly come out to poor crowd pops. He was way less over than the likes of Goldberg/Sting/Nash/DDP/Luger/Savage. |
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Post by Main Event Mark on Oct 5, 2023 18:04:58 GMT -5
If you were going to build a faction around Bret, it would probably have been better to do a proto-team Canada. On top of Benoit, there were plenty of Canadian born stats in WCW at the time. A Bret Hart led evil Canadian faction could have been a plausible substitute for the NWO had that storyline ended inn97-98. My memory isn't great on timelines, but a Bret, Benoit, Jericho, Lance Storm stable could have been solid. |
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Oct 5, 2023 19:20:21 GMT -5
I've sad it before, I'll say it again, WCW didn't want a Hart Foundation. I don't even think they really wanted Bret. They wanted to hurt the WWF. Once they signed Bret and they felt they had done their damage, they didn't really give a damn about what they did with him.
I had this idea where, during the Flair-Bischoff feud in early 1999, after the re-formed nWo ran its course (which I honestly expected to happen sooner then it did), for Bischoff to form his own rival version of the Four Horsemen to feud with Flair's group. It would've included Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, Barry Windham and Scott Norton.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Oct 5, 2023 19:53:14 GMT -5
I've sad it before, I'll say it again, WCW didn't want a Hart Foundation. I don't even think they really wanted Bret. They wanted to hurt the WWF. Once they signed Bret and they felt they had done their damage, they didn't really give a damn about what they did with him. I had this idea where, during the Flair-Bischoff feud in early 1999, after the re-formed nWo ran its course (which I honestly expected to happen sooner then it did), for Bischoff to form his own rival version of the Four Horsemen to feud with Flair's group. It would've included Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, Barry Windham and Scott Norton. They really didnt and honestly I understand why. The Hart Foundation was a WWF creation that was designed as Bret's way of lashing out at the United States fans. The screwjob made him a hero again and automatically should have voided all of that. Bulldog and Bret could mix it up but theres no real need to it while Neidhart was just there because that f***in rhino needed a job. |
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Post by fortknox on Oct 5, 2023 20:30:53 GMT -5
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Post by thegame415 on Oct 7, 2023 17:55:34 GMT -5
Watching Nitro's from this era, and they tease it a lot around February and March 1998. Then Bret all the sudden starts sucking up to Hogan/nWo.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 7, 2023 19:27:55 GMT -5
My own fantasy booking: Bret comes in as an ally to Sting, Flair, Luger, etc that have been fighting the NWO since the start. As the NWO slow.y winds down after Starr ace 97, Bret has programs with Scott and Hall and Curt Henning, harkening back to their time in the WWF. Bret wins both programs, Henning and Hall briefly disappear off tv and when they return they are no longer members of the nwo as it is quietly dissolved. Post NWO, Bret is a title challenger to sting, he has a program with Goldberg to help build Goldberg up to the title, and maybe he joins DDP for a tag team feud with Hall and Nash.
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Post by thegame415 on Oct 7, 2023 20:19:19 GMT -5
My own fantasy booking: Bret comes in as an ally to Sting, Flair, Luger, etc that have been fighting the NWO since the start. As the NWO slow.y winds down after Starr ace 97, Bret has programs with Scott and Hall and Curt Henning, harkening back to their time in the WWF. Bret wins both programs, Henning and Hall briefly disappear off tv and when they return they are no longer members of the nwo as it is quietly dissolved. Post NWO, Bret is a title challenger to sting, he has a program with Goldberg to help build Goldberg up to the title, and maybe he joins DDP for a tag team feud with Hall and Nash. That'd be cool. I always thought if they had a major stable feud, with nWo Hollywood, Wolfpac, Four Horsemen, Flock, and Hart Foundation all feuding with Sting, DDP, and Goldberg as solo in all of it. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 8, 2023 12:38:21 GMT -5
Due to legal reasons in WCW it would have to be called the Hart Conglomeration.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 8, 2023 17:31:34 GMT -5
Due to legal reasons in WCW it would have to be called the Hart Conglomeration. The Chesty Gang |
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Post by dangerousdanpotato on Oct 8, 2023 19:27:44 GMT -5
I heard it was negotiated as part of Davey and Jim's releases that they couldn't team with Bret in WCW.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 10, 2023 3:25:12 GMT -5
I heard it was negotiated as part of Davey and Jim's releases that they couldn't team with Bret in WCW. I don't buy it. Bulldog was on the downward slope at that point and Neidhart hadn't held a job on his own merit since 1991. If Vince had any concerns that WCW could do anything to hurt WWF with 75% of Hart Foundation he'd have kept them under contract like he did with Owen. In all likelihood he couldn't get them off payroll fast enough. |
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