Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
Blanket burrito season is back, and I never left the blankets
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Nov 26, 2023 21:53:37 GMT -5
Seeing this made me go back and reread the reaction thread for Moxley vs. Yuta. This is either a good example of how the internet increased the tendency for people to be prisoners of the moment or it's an even better example of how Tony Khan, more often than not, has no idea how to follow up something. There were multiple people in there hailing Yuta as a "made guy" and a new superstar. Others even made comparisons to John Cena debuting against Kurt Angle and Jeff Hardy's RAW loss to Undertaker. While that was clearly some prisoner of the moment hyperbole, the fact there were some people reacting like that to Yuta's loss and it still took him 17 months from that point to pick up televised singles gives a lot of credibility to those who criticize TK's booking decisions. I mean if you slice it only specifically in the capacity of 'a singles win', sure, yeah. But him proving himself came with a lot of tangible, realistic things. Joining the BCC, being on television, getting tag team and trios wins where he's 8-3 and 7-1 this year, being involved with bigger stars in the company while being their punching bag youngboy, and his pushes within ROH that whether people like it or not is within AEW's universe. He didn't become a megastar, but it did do a big job in elevating Wheeler from the whiny guy Trent didn't like and it was a big stepping stone into having Yuta become a consistent television presence. You need to very specifically cut within lines you drew yourself to say that somehow TK didn't follow this up because literally every second he's had on screen since that match, has been because of that match. And all of that kind of clicks with one of my Overriding Theories of Wrestling, which is that a wrestler's push is good as long as what they are doing now is better than what they were doing previously. Yuta jobbing for the BCC is a step up from jobbing for the Best Friends; getting the pin in tag matches occasionally is better than being pinned in all of his tag losses; being pinned in all of his tag losses is an improvement over losing all of his matches. Which also clicks with what made Yuta's match with Moxley really work, in my opinion: regardless of the match result, Yuta got what he wanted. That match works so well because the characters are motivated, and the ending has this nice element where "looking good in defeat" actually got Yuta something tangible that he valued. I also think that the handling of Yuta since the Moxley match has been very appropriate for a wrestler who has a booatload of talent and is accepted by the fanbase, but is not really lighting the fanbase on fire. Yuta's still in "good hand" territory, and he's a young guy with enough upsides where it's worth hanging on to the possibility that he could transcend from "good hand" to "main event star," but trying to force that would be the death of him. Instead, he's gotten the slow and steady treatment, which will serve him well if he ever finds that missing X-factor.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 26, 2023 22:09:07 GMT -5
I mean if you slice it only specifically in the capacity of 'a singles win', sure, yeah. But him proving himself came with a lot of tangible, realistic things. Joining the BCC, being on television, getting tag team and trios wins where he's 8-3 and 7-1 this year, being involved with bigger stars in the company while being their punching bag youngboy, and his pushes within ROH that whether people like it or not is within AEW's universe. He didn't become a megastar, but it did do a big job in elevating Wheeler from the whiny guy Trent didn't like and it was a big stepping stone into having Yuta become a consistent television presence. You need to very specifically cut within lines you drew yourself to say that somehow TK didn't follow this up because literally every second he's had on screen since that match, has been because of that match. And all of that kind of clicks with one of my Overriding Theories of Wrestling, which is that a wrestler's push is good as long as what they are doing now is better than what they were doing previously. Yuta jobbing for the BCC is a step up from jobbing for the Best Friends; getting the pin in tag matches occasionally is better than being pinned in all of his tag losses; being pinned in all of his tag losses is an improvement over losing all of his matches. Which also clicks with what made Yuta's match with Moxley really work, in my opinion: regardless of the match result, Yuta got what he wanted. That match works so well because the characters are motivated, and the ending has this nice element where "looking good in defeat" actually got Yuta something tangible that he valued. I also think that the handling of Yuta since the Moxley match has been very appropriate for a wrestler who has a booatload of talent and is accepted by the fanbase, but is not really lighting the fanbase on fire. Yuta's still in "good hand" territory, and he's a young guy with enough upsides where it's worth hanging on to the possibility that he could transcend from "good hand" to "main event star," but trying to force that would be the death of him. Instead, he's gotten the slow and steady treatment, which will serve him well if he ever finds that missing X-factor. Yuta entered the Moxley match as an ill-fitting hanger on even in what's basically a band of misfits with rotating guest stars. He was getting tepid responses and he didn't really fit in well where he was. The match was simultaneously about him earning Moxley's respect as a good little violence boy to earn his place in BCC, but also earning the audience's respect in putting on a giant show of fire and wrestle skill, and showing a side of himself he hadn't shown in the Best Friends. That audience respect has carried through in a lot more reception to Yuta since just as it's carried over in him being a central part of a major faction every moment since. Similarly, he's spending his time as BCC's fall guy getting beaten up and getting back up, which is so blatant and so obviously an allegory for 'he's here to get better and become stronger for the day he's ready to be a big deal on his own' that an eighth grade English teacher could use it as an example. If he never becomes a top star, it's sure as shit not for lack of effort or because Tony didn't capitalize on a big solo push for him after the Moxley loss. The match did exactly what it was meant to do narratively and metanarratively, which is why it's being talked aobut in this thread now under these circumstances, and not as "Guys AEW gave a big moment to and then took off TV and left"
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Post by HIM on Nov 26, 2023 22:21:27 GMT -5
That's exactly why I was saying in another thread why I want him to get some legit wins. He needs em way more than people think. I just can't take him seriously.
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Post by Treklubj on Nov 26, 2023 22:24:46 GMT -5
Seeing this made me go back and reread the reaction thread for Moxley vs. Yuta. This is either a good example of how the internet increased the tendency for people to be prisoners of the moment or it's an even better example of how Tony Khan, more often than not, has no idea how to follow up something. There were multiple people in there hailing Yuta as a "made guy" and a new superstar. Others even made comparisons to John Cena debuting against Kurt Angle and Jeff Hardy's RAW loss to Undertaker. While that was clearly some prisoner of the moment hyperbole, the fact there were some people reacting like that to Yuta's loss and it still took him 17 months from that point to pick up televised singles gives a lot of credibility to those who criticize TK's booking decisions. I mean if you slice it only specifically in the capacity of 'a singles win', sure, yeah. But him proving himself came with a lot of tangible, realistic things. Joining the BCC, being on television, getting tag team and trios wins where he's 8-3 and 7-1 this year, being involved with bigger stars in the company while being their punching bag youngboy, and his pushes within ROH that whether people like it or not is within AEW's universe. He didn't become a megastar, but it did do a big job in elevating Wheeler from the whiny guy Trent didn't like and it was a big stepping stone into having Yuta become a consistent television presence. You need to very specifically cut within lines you drew yourself to say that somehow TK didn't follow this up because literally every second he's had on screen since that match, has been because of that match. I used the lines I was given based on what others wrote. Do you think "made guy" (granted, this could probably be open to interpretation) or "new superstar" are terms that could accurately describe Wheeler Yuta?
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,531
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Post by lionheart21 on Nov 26, 2023 22:27:22 GMT -5
He's going to celebrate by marathoning Gallus matches. What kinda sick f***ing monster is he?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 26, 2023 22:29:40 GMT -5
I mean if you slice it only specifically in the capacity of 'a singles win', sure, yeah. But him proving himself came with a lot of tangible, realistic things. Joining the BCC, being on television, getting tag team and trios wins where he's 8-3 and 7-1 this year, being involved with bigger stars in the company while being their punching bag youngboy, and his pushes within ROH that whether people like it or not is within AEW's universe. He didn't become a megastar, but it did do a big job in elevating Wheeler from the whiny guy Trent didn't like and it was a big stepping stone into having Yuta become a consistent television presence. You need to very specifically cut within lines you drew yourself to say that somehow TK didn't follow this up because literally every second he's had on screen since that match, has been because of that match. I used the lines I was given based on what others wrote. Do you think "made guy" (granted, this could probably be open to interpretation) or "new superstar" are terms that could accurately describe Wheeler Yuta? New superstar? Not yet. Made guy? Absolutely. It solidified a roster spot he has kept an iron grip on and put him into high profile matches again and again. It absolutely cemented him as not just a new signing people weren't feeling, but as someone whose weekly television presence now feels wholly justified and who doesn't look out of his place standing in a group with three genuine main eventers. But also it's not the part where you quoted other people that I really took issue with; it's the part where your own words said that Tony has 'no idea how to follow things up'.
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Post by Treklubj on Nov 26, 2023 22:37:05 GMT -5
I used the lines I was given based on what others wrote. Do you think "made guy" (granted, this could probably be open to interpretation) or "new superstar" are terms that could accurately describe Wheeler Yuta? New superstar? Not yet. Made guy? Absolutely. It solidified a roster spot he has kept an iron grip on and put him into high profile matches again and again. It absolutely cemented him as not just a new signing people weren't feeling, but as someone whose weekly television presence now feels wholly justified and who doesn't look out of his place standing in a group with three genuine main eventers. But also it's not the part where you quoted other people that I really took issue with; it's the part where your own words said that Tony has 'no idea how to follow things up'. That's cool. I do think his follow-up on a lot of people leaves a lot to be desired. I think this past week on Dynamite was a perfect example. Swerve and Page created a legit buzz. That win was a major deal for Swerve. The follow-up was him in a random long-ass match with Jay Lethal as part of a tournament to determine a champion of some belts he doesn't even want. At least he didn't at the beginning of the Hangman feud. I assume I'm not the only person who decided to check out Dynamite to see what was next for Swerve Strickland. I also assume I'm not the only person who was let down by what I saw.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 26, 2023 22:41:27 GMT -5
New superstar? Not yet. Made guy? Absolutely. It solidified a roster spot he has kept an iron grip on and put him into high profile matches again and again. It absolutely cemented him as not just a new signing people weren't feeling, but as someone whose weekly television presence now feels wholly justified and who doesn't look out of his place standing in a group with three genuine main eventers. But also it's not the part where you quoted other people that I really took issue with; it's the part where your own words said that Tony has 'no idea how to follow things up'. That's cool. I do think his follow-up on a lot of people leaves a lot to be desired. I think this past week on Dynamite was a perfect example. Swerve and Page created a legit buzz. That win was a major deal for Swerve. The follow-up was him in a random long-ass match with Jay Lethal as part of a tournament to determine a champion of some belts he doesn't even want. At least he didn't at the beginning of the Hangman feud. I assume I'm not the only person who decided to check out Dynamite to see what was next for Swerve Strickland. I also assume I'm not the only person who was let down by what I saw. I mean the words you said were specifically " or it's an even better example of how Tony Khan, more often than not, has no idea how to follow up something." and I responded to that idea, so I'm not sure what dismissing me with 'That's cool' and talking about Swerve really has to do with that. If you don't like my response and don't really care to respond to what I said, you don't need to reply to the post just to say other stuff. This conversation is wholly opt-in.
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Post by Treklubj on Nov 26, 2023 22:56:52 GMT -5
That's cool. I do think his follow-up on a lot of people leaves a lot to be desired. I think this past week on Dynamite was a perfect example. Swerve and Page created a legit buzz. That win was a major deal for Swerve. The follow-up was him in a random long-ass match with Jay Lethal as part of a tournament to determine a champion of some belts he doesn't even want. At least he didn't at the beginning of the Hangman feud. I assume I'm not the only person who decided to check out Dynamite to see what was next for Swerve Strickland. I also assume I'm not the only person who was let down by what I saw. I mean the words you said were specifically " or it's an even better example of how Tony Khan, more often than not, has no idea how to follow up something." and I responded to that idea, so I'm not sure what dismissing me with 'That's cool' and talking about Swerve really has to do with that. If you don't like my response and don't really care to respond to what I said, you don't need to reply to the post just to say other stuff. This conversation is wholly opt-in. My bad. That's cool, meant "I'm cool with that. I see what you took issue with." It wasn't meant in a dismissive way. Maybe I should have said it was more prisoner of the moment hyperbole but also some not-great follow-up instead of the other way around. I said the thing about Swerve as an example of TK doing a poor job of following up on something. That's a recent example but not an isolated one.
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Post by cookiedoh85 on Nov 27, 2023 10:06:25 GMT -5
Honestly what they’re doing now with HOOK and Yuta should be great for both. Yuta hasn’t had a serious rival since Garcia and even then he was a side player to Garcia’s story with BCC. HOOK was supposed to have a rival in Perry but All In happened.
Yuta and HOOK compliment eachother perfectly so feuding now over the Pure title should give Yuta a real chance to show something more in terms of personality and HOOK in terms of someone he can have a believable dislike for.
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Post by Doo Doo is Worse Than WCW 2000 on Nov 27, 2023 14:04:56 GMT -5
Heartbreaking: The worst wrestler you know just won a singles match.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,068
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 27, 2023 17:27:11 GMT -5
Wheeler should get down to his underwear to make MJF watch more Vader matches with him.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 27, 2023 17:31:39 GMT -5
Heartbreaking: The worst wrestler you know just won a singles match. Who the f*** signed David Starr again?
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Post by Mr Mario Mario on Nov 27, 2023 17:41:54 GMT -5
Heartbreaking: The worst wrestler you know just won a singles match. Yep. It’s one more victory that I want him to have lol I just can’t with him which is why I always deduct a point off my dynamite or Collison ratings when he shows up. No offense to the dude, I know he could easily dismantle me but when I see him on TV, I just feel like he’s a little kid playing a tough guy and just can’t buy it
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Post by Doo Doo is Worse Than WCW 2000 on Nov 27, 2023 17:42:57 GMT -5
Heartbreaking: The worst wrestler you know just won a singles match. Yep. It’s one more victory that I want him to have lol I just can’t with him which is why I always deduct a point off my dynamite or Collison ratings when he shows up. No offense to the dude, I know he could easily dismantle me but when I see him on TV, I just feel like he’s a little kid playing a tough guy and just can’t buy it I don't really hate him, I just find him really bland and enjoy dunking on his ass!
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